THE Solar Road Thread (merged)

[yesplease]

Someone bring me up to date on this crap.

Do we have yesplease suggesting that, somehow, molten glass can be formed on site, and, somehow, poured onto a road surface thus forming PV panels.

Hard to say. He also claims that it will be more cost effective then conventional paving but mostly this is a contest to see how absurd a thread can be and still get a response.

Where did I post this stuff you crazy (possibly murderous) guys you?

[vtsnowedin]

[quote="yesplease"]They should make about half a million per mile per year in electricity so that helps defray costs. I'm pretty sure that most road paving costs in 2006 don't have land acquisition costs, or grading and surveying costs comparable to new road construction. Hauling the panels should be a pretty insignificant cost, but I found this indicating that the total cost should actually be about $16 million, since we'll need to pave with glass in a way similar to paving with asphalt (Which btw has several patents related to the same microwave idea).

In terms of the total cost, the group that proposed the plan wants to incorporate power generation, transmission, and data all in one road that will (supposedly) last three times longer than a typical road. This avoids right of way problems with new transmission, but I can't really say whether or not it'll be cost effective, since it depends on developing equipment capable of heating and forming the glass over the panels. If they can pull it off, it'll be much easier to repair roads, since we can just do another run w/ the equipment as opposed to pulling up all the old stuff and taking it back to be processed, which was the motivation for similar patents regarding asphalt paving.

I don't think large trucks in particular represent a large impediment. It really on whether or not they can pull off the application, and if so, what the savings from integrating services, along w/ lower maintenance costs, will be compared to asphalt or concrete based roads at the time.[/quote]
Thats where.
Murderous? Me ? Well if your standing between me : and a beautiful woman with a come and get it smile, or a hot meal, or a case of cold beer then you might have a problem but I can't imagine it not being easier to just go around you.

[yesplease]

They should make about half a million per mile per year in electricity so that helps defray costs. I'm pretty sure that most road paving costs in 2006 don't have land acquisition costs, or grading and surveying costs comparable to new road construction. Hauling the panels should be a pretty insignificant cost, but I found this indicating that the total cost should actually be about $16 million, since we'll need to pave with glass in a way similar to paving with asphalt (Which btw has several patents related to the same microwave idea).

In terms of the total cost, the group that proposed the plan wants to incorporate power generation, transmission, and data all in one road that will (supposedly) last three times longer than a typical road. This avoids right of way problems with new transmission, but I can't really say whether or not it'll be cost effective, since it depends on developing equipment capable of heating and forming the glass over the panels. If they can pull it off, it'll be much easier to repair roads, since we can just do another run w/ the equipment as opposed to pulling up all the old stuff and taking it back to be processed, which was the motivation for similar patents regarding asphalt paving.

I don't think large trucks in particular represent a large impediment. It really on whether or not they can pull off the application, and if so, what the savings from integrating services, along w/ lower maintenance costs, will be compared to asphalt or concrete based roads at the time.

Thats where.

How do you read something stating it may be cost effective at some point in the indefinite future if the application (and materials) can be pulled off as something stating it will be cost effective in the future? Do you understand the difference between a statement that something is certain, and a statement that something may be possible?

Murderous? Me ? Well if your standing between me : and a beautiful woman with a come and get it smile, or a hot meal, or a case of cold beer then you might have a problem but I can't imagine it not being easier to just go around you.

Nah, that possible label is reserved for psdiddy and his crazy, possibly (hopefully not) murderous approach to other forum members.

Now Yesplease
[...]
If you can't respond constructively, and discuss this in a mature manner than I will be forced to send you to your room without computer privileges. And without dinner. And then I will lock the door and gas you inside with Zyklon-B cyanide gas. Okay?

[Gerben]

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to try this out on bicycle roads? Bicycle roads have much lower requirements.

[yesplease]

Probably. I imagine that foot/bike paths in temperate climates would make for a good proof of concept.

[Ferretlover]

SH

Scott and Julie Brusaw have a way of solving the energy crisis, it just involves you driving on glass. The Brusaws are the founders of Solar Roadways, an Idaho based startup looking to reinvent the US highway system by replacing asphalt roads with solar cells. Using photo-voltaic technology available today, Scott Brusaw calculates that a single mile of highway, if converted to solar cells, would provide enough power to run 428 homes in the US. And that’s on just four hours of sunlight a day. Solar Roadways has garnered the attention of think tanks, documentary film makers, and politicians. They even took home a grant from the Department of Transportation and created a prototype panel (12′ x 12′) that also functions as an intelligent roadway with sensors and dynamic lighting. The Solar Roadways project is remarkable for its vision, but there are many questions about costs, administration, and driving on glass surfaces that have yet to be answered. Check out videos of the prototype panel below and judge for yourself about whether solar panel roads are the ticket to living on easy street, or a just another highway to hell.

Scott Brusaw has a whole section on their website dealing with those numbers. If you’re interested in this project I greatly urge you to read that webpage (along with the FAQ) because it covers the idea in a detail I don’t have time for here. Instead, I have to summarize:

Commercial solar panels are available at 18.5% efficiency, if we replaced all the highways in the lower 48 states with solar panels of the same surface area then we’d get about 14 billion kilowatt hours of electricity. That’s roughly three times what the US uses each year, and about equal to what the world consumes each year. The cost? Brusaw is aiming for each road 12′ by 12′ panel to cost around $10,000 and for the average lifespan of the panel to be about 20 years. There is roughly 29,000 square miles (~800 billion square feet) of road surface to cover. We need roughly 5.6 billion panels to cover that area. That’s a price tag of $56 trillion! Brusaw points out, however, that at current retail electricity prices the road would pay for itself in about 22 years. Quicker if we used panels with greater efficiency.

This will probably be another idea that the Chinese will adopt and develop.

[eXpat]

I’m also concerned with how much this project depends on the undeveloped technology of the glass surface. We haven’t seen a single panel of this magic substance which will be able to handle all the requirements that Brusaw has laid out for it. Nor have we really seen any numbers on what that substance will actually cost. And how will it stay clean? The Solar Roadways FAQ proposes that the roadway could use self-cleaning glass, or that we could simply clean it with a street sweeper. I sense some more hand-waving here.

But maybe we’ll have clearer answers to these concerns in the years ahead. Solar Roadways seems bent on raising funds and developing future prototypes. You can vote for their concept in the GE Ecomagination competition where $200 million in funding (in total) is at stake, and you can personally donate to the cause through their website. Hopefully additional funds would allow Solar Roadways to build a prototype that actually generates usable amounts of electricity and stores it for later use.

Until they do produce such a prototype, I’m not sure I’ll believe in the Solar Roadways concept.

http://singularityhub.com/2010/08/08/solar-roadways-crackpot-idea-or-ingenious-concept-video/
And this comment comes from a writer at Singularity Hub!!! Not even they believe in the factibility of this.

[Carlhole]

I’m also concerned with how much this project depends on the undeveloped technology of the glass surface. We haven’t seen a single panel of this magic substance which will be able to handle all the requirements that Brusaw has laid out for it. Nor have we really seen any numbers on what that substance will actually cost. And how will it stay clean? The Solar Roadways FAQ proposes that the roadway could use self-cleaning glass, or that we could simply clean it with a street sweeper. I sense some more hand-waving here.

But maybe we’ll have clearer answers to these concerns in the years ahead. Solar Roadways seems bent on raising funds and developing future prototypes. You can vote for their concept in the GE Ecomagination competition where $200 million in funding (in total) is at stake, and you can personally donate to the cause through their website. Hopefully additional funds would allow Solar Roadways to build a prototype that actually generates usable amounts of electricity and stores it for later use.

Until they do produce such a prototype, I’m not sure I’ll believe in the Solar Roadways concept.

http://singularityhub.com/2010/08/08/solar-roadways-crackpot-idea-or-ingenious-concept-video/
And this comment comes from a writer at Singularity Hub!!! Not even they believe in the factibility of this.

This is the doomer stock reponse to any new science or new idea: if it isn't available right now and Wal-Mart, then it isn't technically feasible. What stulted intelligence! I mean, that's really stupid logic.

Obviously, in science some ideas can be made workable and others will be proven infeasible. You can't know the outcome ahead of time. You have to experiment, fail, re-try, develop, improve, etc. - or drop the idea altogether. After all, there are millions of ideas worth pursuing,

[eXpat]

Those roads are going to be real funny when it rains or drizzle!, then again, it may help with the overpopulation problem.
I thought that as the singularity approaches, we would have flying cars!, why bother with roads then?
(Hint to Carlhole : YES! is sarcasm again )

[Carlhole]

YES! is sarcasm again )

...and it's old dude, predictable and not worth anything.

[pstarr]

I have to agree Carlhole, it is a crackpot idea. It is so outside the realm of commons sense as to be completely nonsensical. If that makes sense?

A very small car requires about 15,000 watts or 2,000 sq. ft (a 10' lane, 200' long) of solar panels. That could work in real time (no batteries) given certain conditions:
-the sun is out,
--no snow leaves dead bodies on road etc.
--no shadows from trees buildings living bodies cars etc. across road.
-ideal inclination and orientation on all slopes, inclines, banks etc.

Any of these conditions not met, and the requirements double (400' ft. per car) triple (600') etc. very quickly

A truck might require 150,000 or 20,000 sq. ft. (a 10' lane, 1/2 mile long) to start and up to many miles for inclement weather

[Carlhole]

I don't post these news articles related to energy because I think they're going to save the world. I post them because they're news stories at large. I like to make comments about them.

But even if I post an energy-related news piece from a peer-reviewed science journal, I personally get attacked for it. That sucks. The doomers do their very best to make sure that no else reads or gives these positive-spin news stories any attention whatsoever. They don't want an energy discussion to take place on an energy discussion board unless these articles pass doomer quality assurance: anything that spells the end of civilization is fine, just don't post anything that might run contrary to that belief.

Fact is, doomers don't want to hear about ANY energy innovation at all and they don't want anyone else to hear about them or discuss them either - even though sci/tech is the primary way human beings deal with problems. So every thread about energy science or energy innovation gets jammed up with really dumbass doomer objections - every single time. And the primary way to jam up a thread is to use the kind of sarcasm one might find at a middle-school lunch table - really stupid stuff.

And people wonder "why this forum died"? Because it's not interesting folks. I've read Richard Heinberg cautioning people to read TheOilDrum but to avoid PO.com and LATOC because of all the childish nonsense on them. He's right.

[Keith_McClary]

We haven’t seen a single panel of this magic substance which will be able to handle all the requirements that Brusaw has laid out for it.

All it needs is some research grants. They could start out by driving their car over a solar calculator.

[Carlhole]

They could start out by driving their car over a solar calculator.

See what I mean? Really stupid brain farts, every single time.

This is how groupthink works, folks.

[EnergyUnlimited]

And people wonder "why this forum died"? Because it's not interesting folks. I've read Richard Heinberg cautioning people to read TheOilDrum but to avoid PO.com and LATOC because of all the childish nonsense on them. He's right.

Perheps Heinberg have seen that *you* are posting here in addition to shortonsense, OF2 and few religious zealots.

You are about as good as Savinar is but you just have different inclinations.

Savinar is parroting Hollywood styled doom utopia and you are parroting technotopia instead.

[Ferretlover]

Even the most hardcore doomer has to admit, this is a pretty cool concept : http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/

[coolcars]

Having solar panels embedded in roads powering cars is a cool idea if you have unlimited money, but I don't see this as being practical anytime soon.

[vtsnowedin]

That was SWMBOs reaction to this and I have to agree with her.
I supervise road construction and paving for a living. All they have to do to change my mind is put a hundred foot section into service in an interstate highway with twenty thousand ADT (average daily traffic) for a year in an area where snow plowing occurs regularly and record the KWHs produced, the repair costs and the friction numbers when wet or snow covered. Should be a piece of cake. SWMBO wants to know how far her forty foot school bus will slide across a glass highway covered with snow or rain water.

[The Practician]

Don't solar powered "cars" basically have to be highly aerodynamic recumbent trikes with their entire footprint devoted to solar panels to even work?" how is a highway system made of solar panels actually going to manage to move anything that drives on it?

[basil_hayden]

:lol: That was SWMBOs reaction to this and I have to agree with her.
I supervise road construction and paving for a living. All they have to do to change my mind is put a hundred foot section into service in an interstate highway with twenty thousand ADT (average daily traffic) for a year in an area where snow plowing occurs regularly and record the KWHs produced, the repair costs and the friction numbers when wet or snow covered. Should be a piece of cake. SWMBO wants to know how far her forty foot school bus will slide across a glass highway covered with snow or rain water.

Certainly seems in our region, vt, that the better answer would be a solar roof to prevent most of the snow and ice fall from hitting the pavement and the ability to tilt panels and shake snow off.

Ultimately, another BAU fairy tale.