THE Solar Road Thread (merged)

[like_the_dinosaurs]

built-in heating elements that could prevent roads from freezing

Yes, we are going to solve our energy problems by using more energy to wait for it........ F%&King warm roads. lol

[VMarcHart]

Would these work in a traffic jam? Wouldn't the sun be blocked?

Goddamit, pstarr. You and your stupid doom views always putting a torpedo in the cornucopian boat.

[Serial_Worrier]

Here we go again with more cornucopian bs. No amount of technology will save us. Doom I say. The end is nigh.

[yesplease]

Would these work in a traffic jam? Wouldn't the sun be blocked?

Goddamit, pstarr. You and your stupid doom views always putting a torpedo in the cornucopian boat.

Fer sure! Cuz midday, when solar output would be maximal, the freeways are just one big parking lot. It's not like we've ever seen traffic jams in the morning or evening, when people tend to go and come back from work.

And sheesh, look at all the cars in this jam, we can only see what 80+% of the pavement?

[yesplease]

How does 1760*7000=1.23 B?

Even using normal math (12.3 M) it would be a little pricey.

At $60/bbl, four lane roads are about $4 million per mile, last seven years, and cost about $570,000 per year. At $12.3 million per mile, the solar road thingy would need to last about 12 years to equal the cost of an asphalt version.

[fletch_961]

The cornucopian at work.

And then let's install wind generators along the 46,876 miles of interstate roads. Fifteen generators per mile using both shoulders and the medium of the interstate, 703,140 generators, each at 3 megawatts, that's 2.1 gigawatts. Enough to power every fat food restaurant and every 60-inch plasma TV in America.

And then let's curral sheep and goats to mow the grass along the interstates, collect the manure and power distributed biomass power plants every 50 miles. Again, enough to power every HVAC unit in America to ensure no home gets colder than 69F or hotter than 72F.

And then...

2.1 terawatts, using normal math.

Operating at 33% of nameplate capacity would produce ~6.1 petawatt-hours. Which is 52% more than the total 4.157 petawatt-hours (electric) the US uses (EIA-2007). No sheep needed.

[fletch_961]

At $60/bbl, four lane roads are about $4 million per mile, last seven years, and cost about $570,000 per year. At $12.3 million per mile, the solar road thingy would need to last about 12 years to equal the cost of an asphalt version.

Wouldn't that be closer to 21.5 years?

Also, asphalt roads include more than just the asphalt. Included in the $4M price would be grading, surveying, installation, hauling, probably land acquisition, etc. None of that appears to be included in the $12.3M price tag---all you get in the panels.

Why engineer solar panels that you can drive on when there is plenty of places that they can be put them that does not included 80k pound Mack trucks?

[yesplease]

They should make about half a million per mile per year in electricity so that helps defray costs. I'm pretty sure that most road paving costs in 2006 don't have land acquisition costs, or grading and surveying costs comparable to new road construction. Hauling the panels should be a pretty insignificant cost, but I found this indicating that the total cost should actually be about $16 million, since we'll need to pave with glass in a way similar to paving with asphalt (Which btw has several patents related to the same microwave idea).

In terms of the total cost, the group that proposed the plan wants to incorporate power generation, transmission, and data all in one road that will (supposedly) last three times longer than a typical road. This avoids right of way problems with new transmission, but I can't really say whether or not it'll be cost effective, since it depends on developing equipment capable of heating and forming the glass over the panels. If they can pull it off, it'll be much easier to repair roads, since we can just do another run w/ the equipment as opposed to pulling up all the old stuff and taking it back to be processed, which was the motivation for similar patents regarding asphalt paving.

I don't think large trucks in particular represent a large impediment. It really on whether or not they can pull off the application, and if so, what the savings from integrating services, along w/ lower maintenance costs, will be compared to asphalt or concrete based roads at the time.

[fletch_961]

I'm pretty sure that most road paving costs in 2006 don't have land acquisition costs, or grading and surveying costs comparable to new road construction.

Where did your $4 M figure come from? Was it the cost to re-pave a mile of road or the average cost to maintain the I-system. It certainly doesn't cost $4 M to re-coat 253,440 sq. feet of existing road w/ asphalt.

But when projects like the aforementioned "Big Dig" and this one (see below) get averaged in $4 M sounds about right.

The interchange recently underwent a significant rebuild dubbed the Marquette Interchange Project, and was officially opened on August 19, 2008, several weeks ahead of schedule. At a cost of less than $810 million, which was well below the projected $1 billion price tag, the project involved 46 cranes and more than 4,000 workers in the largest construction project in state history, which took a little more than four years to complete.

[edit] The new interchange

The new Marquette Interchange was designed to ensure the safe and efficient flow of traffic. Though the new interchange occupies the same amount of land as the old one, it feels much more spacious. Design features include:

* Two lane ramps in both directions between I-94 and I-43
* More gradual curves on ramps, with longer sight distances
* More distance between ramps, to eliminate traffic conflicts from lane changes
* Elimination of all left-hand entrances and exits
* Design features allow for future expansion to an eight lane expressway

$810M for a couple miles.

Some states, cities and counties say their road-repair budgets didn't anticipate asphalt prices that are up 25.9% from a year ago, so they're being forced to delay projects.

"We will do what patching we can, but this will truly, truly be a devastating blow to the infrastructure," says Shirlee Leighton, a county commissioner in Lake County, S.D., where a 5-mile repaving project was postponed after bids came in $79,000-$162,000 higher than the $442,000 budget.

About $500k for 5 miles of just repaving, not $4m. Granted that was probably a two lane road.

[pstarr]

The cornucopian at work.

And then let's install wind generators along the 46,876 miles of interstate roads. Fifteen generators per mile using both shoulders and the medium of the interstate, 703,140 generators, each at 3 megawatts, that's 2.1 gigawatts. Enough to power every fat food restaurant and every 60-inch plasma TV in America.

And then let's curral sheep and goats to mow the grass along the interstates, collect the manure and power distributed biomass power plants every 50 miles. Again, enough to power every HVAC unit in America to ensure no home gets colder than 69F or hotter than 72F.

And then...

To dream ... the impossible dream ...
To fight ... the unbeatable Exxon ...
To bear ... with unbearable burro ...
To run ... where the brave dare not mow (the grass) ...
To right ... the unrightable stanchion ...

To love ... pure and chaste from afar ...
To try ... when your blades are too weary ...
To reach ... the unreachable wind current ...

This is my quest, to follow that solar arc ...
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far ...
To fight for the right, without question or pause ...
To be willing to march into Hell, for a cornucopian dream ...

[EnergyUnlimited]

Would these work in a traffic jam? Wouldn't the sun be blocked?

I rather wonder, would it take kindly thousands of 30-50 tons lorries passing over every day?

[yesplease]

I'm pretty sure that most road paving costs in 2006 don't have land acquisition costs, or grading and surveying costs comparable to new road construction.

Where did your $4 M figure come from? Was it the cost to re-pave a mile of road or the average cost to maintain the I-system. It certainly doesn't cost $4 M to re-coat 253,440 sq. feet of existing road w/ asphalt.

But when projects like the aforementioned "Big Dig" and this one (see below) get averaged in $4 M sounds about right.

The interchange recently underwent a significant rebuild dubbed the Marquette Interchange Project, and was officially opened on August 19, 2008, several weeks ahead of schedule. At a cost of less than $810 million, which was well below the projected $1 billion price tag, the project involved 46 cranes and more than 4,000 workers in the largest construction project in state history, which took a little more than four years to complete.

[edit] The new interchange

The new Marquette Interchange was designed to ensure the safe and efficient flow of traffic. Though the new interchange occupies the same amount of land as the old one, it feels much more spacious. Design features include:

* Two lane ramps in both directions between I-94 and I-43
* More gradual curves on ramps, with longer sight distances
* More distance between ramps, to eliminate traffic conflicts from lane changes
* Elimination of all left-hand entrances and exits
* Design features allow for future expansion to an eight lane expressway

$810M for a couple miles.

Some states, cities and counties say their road-repair budgets didn't anticipate asphalt prices that are up 25.9% from a year ago, so they're being forced to delay projects.

"We will do what patching we can, but this will truly, truly be a devastating blow to the infrastructure," says Shirlee Leighton, a county commissioner in Lake County, S.D., where a 5-mile repaving project was postponed after bids came in $79,000-$162,000 higher than the $442,000 budget.

About $500k for 5 miles of just repaving, not $4m. Granted that was probably a two lane road.

It's from the site (link is in the popsci link on the first page). I'm not sure if it's accurate. Like you mentioned, it sounds like it's for new roads. For instance a new four lane road in Afghanistan costs about $3 million per mile, so $16/ft^2 sounds like new road costs in America. Still, if the construction tech turns out to be viable, which is pretty much what the entire thing hinges on, then the panels have to last long enough to amortize their initial cost less whatever they can tack on (data/power transmission, load leveling due to integrating capacitive storage) given what appears to be lower maintenance costs.

[vtsnowedin]

Current bid prices using Obama bucks are coming in between $68 and $80 per ton. It takes .057 ton to pave one square yard one inch deep. A typical rural interstate will have four twelve foot travel lanes two ten foot breakdown lanes and two four foot shoulders on the median side with a thirty foot grass strip median between the Northbound and southbound barrels. A typical job can be to shim the ruts with a drag course then overlay full width one and a half inches deep for an average of two inches over the whole job for shim and top combined.
So (48+20+8)*5280/9*.057*2*80=$406,630 per mile. Now add in mobilization, traffic control, any bridge repairs needed on that section, drainage replacements, brush up the guardrail and signage, throw in a dab for permits, enviromental protection and a smidgen for field engineering and bean counting etc and you get past a million a mile just to resurface it which is about what it cost to build including the bridges back in the 60s.

Glass pavement??? freezing rain/ winter ought to be fun.

[yesplease]

Glass pavement??? freezing rain/ winter ought to be fun.

Is reading the FAQ really that horrible?

What are you going to do about traction? Cars slip and slide on wet asphalt, let alone wet glass. What’s going to happen to the surface of the Solar Roadways™when it rains?

Everyone naturally pictures sliding out of control on a smooth piece of wet glass! Actually, one of the many technical specs for the top layer it that it be textured to the point that it provides at least the traction that current asphalt roads offer – even in the rain. I hesitate to even call it glass, as it is far from a traditional window pane, but glass is what it is, so glass is what we must call it.

Last year, I attended a three day workshop called the International Workshop on Scientific Challenges for New Functionalities in Glass in Arlington, Virginia. I received quite an education in the properties and abilities of glass! I presented the Solar Roadways™ to an international audience of glass scientists. Afterward, I was invited to travel north and present our project to Penn State University’s Materials Research Institute. I had lunch with several of their research scientists after my presentation. By the end of this trip, I had been thoroughly convinced that the glass specs that I had presented would not pose any problems – and traction was the easy part.

[VMarcHart]

My doom mood notwithstanding, I'm in awe with the concept of infinite betterment.

It doesn't matter that we clear, pave, re-pave, un-pave, pave again every single last square inch of land, somebody will always come up with a solution for the improvement of all 9+ billion projected lives, forever and ever, that is.

[dorlomin]

How do you stop when you break on it.

How do you turn on it.

And those two questions when it rains..........


I believe on the interenet this is known as 'made of fail'.

[yesplease]

Magic, that's how ya stop and turn! Oh, and reading the whole thread, maybe the site's FAQ, those help too.

[yesplease]

My doom mood notwithstanding, I'm in awe with the concept of infinite betterment.

It doesn't matter that we clear, pave, re-pave, un-pave, pave again every single last square inch of land, somebody will always come up with a solution for the improvement of all 9+ billion projected lives, forever and ever, that is.

I dare you to make less sense!

[VMarcHart]

I dare you to make less sense!

But then, look who's talking.

[yesplease]

I dare you to make less sense!

But then, look who's talking.

About infinite betterment? Looks like that one was you!