Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

More space-based solar fantasies

Unread postby GHung » Sat 14 Mar 2015, 11:10:15

Japan comes closer to beaming solar power from SPACE: Mitsubishi makes breakthrough in sending energy wirelessly

- Microwaves delivered 1.8 kw of power - enough to run an electric kettle
-Power was sent through the air with to a receiver 170ft (55 metres) away
- Technology may someday help tap vast solar energy available in space
-Jaxa's plan is to eventually have sunlight-gathering panels and antennae set up about 22,300 miles (36,000km) from the Earth

Japanese scientists have successfully transmitted energy wirelessly in a breakthrough that could pave the way for space-based solar power systems.

Mitsubishi researchers used microwaves to deliver 1.8 kilowatts of power - enough to run an electric kettle - through the air with pinpoint accuracy to a receiver 170ft (55 metres) away.

While the distance was relatively small, the technology could someday pave the way for mankind to tap the vast amount of solar energy available in space and use it here on Earth.

Image

'This was the first time anyone has managed to send a high output of nearly two kilowatts of electric power via microwaves to a small target, using a delicate directivity control device,' said a spokesman for the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (Jaxa) said.

The test, which took place at Kobe Shipyard & Machinery Works in Nagoya, Japan, will help Jaxa devise its long-awaited space solar power system....

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z3UNPiY2dK


Two whole kilowatts!? (well not quite). I always wondered what the unintended consequences of beaming terrawatts of concentrated energy through our atmosphere would be, though not something I'll be losing sleep over.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: More space-based solar fantasies

Unread postby Peak_Yeast » Sat 14 Mar 2015, 12:52:05

Hehe.. The pictures of the transmitter and receiver shows two huge constructions (small target?) - i sure hope they can beam much more power than 2KW with this system.... Pinpoint accuracy...

"Shimizu Corporation's Luna Ring project would stretch almost 6,790 miles (11,000km) around the moon's equator and a field of solar panels would form a belt."

Haha... Planting solar panels around the entire moon equator... I have seen people put into insane asylums for less crazy ideas like hidden nuclear bombs in their washing machine.
"If democracy is the least bad form of government - then why dont we try it?"
User avatar
Peak_Yeast
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue 30 Apr 2013, 16:54:38
Location: Denmark

Re: More space-based solar fantasies

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 15 Mar 2015, 00:41:56

Why didn't they make a pot of tea with their kettle of hot water?
Image
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

– The Archdruid
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7276
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 01:46:35

Print
Space Based Solar Power Market Global Industry Analysis Forecast 2017 2025
Posted: Jul 19, 2017 3:56 AM EDT
Updated: Jul 19, 2017 7:28 AM EDT


Collecting the solar power in outer space and transmitting it wirelessly to the surface of the earth for usage in various applications is the basic concept of space based solar power (also known as SBSP). High collection or absorption rate of uninterrupted solar energy is one of the primary advantages of the technique. During night and cloud cover, solar energy is unavailable on earth. The incoming solar energy is largely affected by earth’s atmosphere. About 30% of incoming solar energy is reflected to the space due to earth’s thick atmosphere. The tilt of the earth’s axis actually causes various seasons, which in turn affects the incoming solar radiation. In space the absence of atmosphere & zero effect of the earth’s tilt poses a great opportunity to harness the incessant solar energy.

Self-assembling satellites are launched into space, and equipped with reflectors and microwave or laser power transmitter. These expandable reflectors or mirrors expands & directs solar radiation onto the panels. These panels transform solar energy into microwave or a laser, and transmit the uninterrupted beam down to power receiving stations on earth and add it to the electric grid. Space based solar power can deliver large amount of energy with minimal impact to the environment. It may solve energy and greenhouse gas emission issues. Two types of satellites are being discussed for designing of SBSP: microwave transmitting satellite and laser transmitting satellite. Of these two types, the microwave transmitting satellite is larger in size and orbits at much higher altitude (around 30-35000 km). It incurs higher cost of launching and setting the satellite system into the orbit. Whereas the laser transmitting system is smaller in size and orbits the earth at lesser altitude of 300-400 km above the earth’s surface thus has lesser cost. However, the construction of such a system requires significant investment in R&D and then into a pilot project.

The application of SBSP derived solar energy is large as the source of energy is limitless. The energy emitted by the sun every hour is more than that consumed by a human in a year. The energy gathered at the station located on the earth’s surface will provide uninterrupted electricity for domestic, commercial, and industry usage. Increase in number of such projects may completely transform the ongoing energy scenario. Waste free operation is another driver of this technology. Nuclear waste generated by nuclear power plant & coal power plant pollutes the environment and also incurs huge cost for its disposal.

High cost of launching the equipment into the geostationary orbits is a major restraint of this technique. The rocket technology is evolving, thus it is possible to have reusable rockets in near future. Reusable rockets will increase the frequency of launching and thus the cost of launching operation will reduce. Reduction in launching cost of SBSP will promote the concept to become a reality.

The technology is not yet available in the market. However, the following organizations plan to engage in SBSP: NASA, Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), European Space Agency (ESA), & Space Energy Inc.


http://www.news12.com/story/35917769/sp ... -2017-2025
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 06:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 12:07:48

And by their own admission since the tech hasn't been developed yet we don't know if SBSP will ever be an economically viable option. But nothing wrong with dreaming. As long as it doesn't distract from proven options.
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 10459
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 12:34:45

ROCKMAN wrote:And by their own admission since the tech hasn't been developed yet we don't know if SBSP will ever be an economically viable option. But nothing wrong with dreaming. As long as it doesn't distract from proven options.


As a matter of fact, there is one HUGE problem with beaming power from space. There may be AGW going on already (I remain unconvinced, since we are in a warming period anyway), but intercepting sunlight that would otherwise miss the Earth snd then beaming it to the surface either as microwaves or light is definately a form of Global Warming, as each kWh of power would end up adding that same amount of heat.

Bad idea. I like the techie aspect, but not the concept.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3979
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 12:47:57

KaiserJeep wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:And by their own admission since the tech hasn't been developed yet we don't know if SBSP will ever be an economically viable option. But nothing wrong with dreaming. As long as it doesn't distract from proven options.


As a matter of fact, there is one HUGE problem with beaming power from space. There may be AGW going on already (I remain unconvinced, since we are in a warming period anyway), but intercepting sunlight that would otherwise miss the Earth snd then beaming it to the surface either as microwaves or light is definately a form of Global Warming, as each kWh of power would end up adding that same amount of heat.

Bad idea. I like the techie aspect, but not the concept.

I respectfully disagree. As long as that heat dissipates normally, without adding any net GHG's to the atmosphere, then the heat should dissipate fairly rapidly (slowed by the GHG problem, of course).

As long as the energy beamed in does things like charge batteries or run turbines or whatever, and that's clean -- then that heat would dissipate rapidly, the way the earth's surface naturally cools at night, for example.

To the extent this replaces any FF burning, it has to be a net very good thing re AGW over time, unless I'm missing something fundamental. So if as the "solar isn't enough because it's too diffuse, etc" crowd says, things like this are required to help us get to a truly nearly fully green energy profile -- then I think it would be fantastic for AGW prevention.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 12:59:17

I think this is adding unnecessary complications for little gain. But I will gladly volunteer to install it :)

This is ground control to Major Tom...can you hear me Major Tom?
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 13:53:48

SBSP is an incredible technology! It transfers unimpeded insolation to a stationary earth-based heat engine. Or to your crisped-up body . . . if you dare question the tech :x

I like SBSP
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 25800
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 19:35:13

pstarr wrote:SBSP is an incredible technology! It transfers unimpeded insolation to a stationary earth-based heat engine. Or to your crisped-up body . . . if you dare question the tech :x

I like SBSP

Shades of the movie "Real Genius", for the crisped up body thing.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 30 Jul 2017, 20:54:40

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
pstarr wrote:SBSP is an incredible technology! It transfers unimpeded insolation to a stationary earth-based heat engine. Or to your crisped-up body . . . if you dare question the tech :x

I like SBSP

Shades of the movie "Real Genius", for the crisped up body thing.

I didn't see it, though I enjoyed Val Kilmer in the "Doors".
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 25800
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 31 Jul 2017, 10:38:01

KaiserJeep wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:And by their own admission since the tech hasn't been developed yet we don't know if SBSP will ever be an economically viable option. But nothing wrong with dreaming. As long as it doesn't distract from proven options.


As a matter of fact, there is one HUGE problem with beaming power from space. There may be AGW going on already (I remain unconvinced, since we are in a warming period anyway), but intercepting sunlight that would otherwise miss the Earth snd then beaming it to the surface either as microwaves or light is definately a form of Global Warming, as each kWh of power would end up adding that same amount of heat.

Bad idea. I like the techie aspect, but not the concept.


That makes no more sense than the people who think waste heat from any other type of power plant warm the earth. If the energy is being used on the surface the waste heat produced will be released on or near the surface no matter what the energy source is. Coal, natural gas, geothermal, nuclear, cold fusion, beamed space solar...irrelevant! All the released stored energy or beamed energy is ultimately expressed as heat.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 06:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 31 Jul 2017, 14:32:26

Subjectivist wrote:-snip-

That makes no more sense than the people who think waste heat from any other type of power plant warm the earth. If the energy is being used on the surface the waste heat produced will be released on or near the surface no matter what the energy source is. Coal, natural gas, geothermal, nuclear, cold fusion, beamed space solar...irrelevant! All the released stored energy or beamed energy is ultimately expressed as heat.


Sub and OS, you need to think about this using basic thermodynamics at the macro level of the planet itself. It is a round ball and intercepts solar flux at a constant rate exactly the same as the cross sectional area exposed to the Sun. The only variables being distance from the Sun and the solar output of our star.

Now think of adding EXTRA ENERGY above and beyond that intercepted by the planet itself. Whatever means you use to capture such energy, however you use it, the net result will (because of entropy) always be the natural heating of the planet PLUS the amount you added from space. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the globe will be warmer by the extra added amount of energy, within a very short time. If you believe both that AGW is occurring and that the system is feeding back with a positive sign, then the added warming caused by the added heat will also be multiplied.

Without a doubt, such power satellites will warm the Earth. If you are concerned with AGW and want to DECREASE rather than INCREASE global warming, you should put these power satellites in an equatorial orbit and whenever they are on the daylight side of the Earth, intercept sunlight that would otherwise strike the planet itself, and beam it away into space. That would have a net cooling effect.

The reason it is commonly called "Thermo-Goddamnics" it because it is frequently inconvenient.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3979
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: THE Solar Power & Space Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 31 Jul 2017, 15:26:19

KaiserJeep wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:-snip-

That makes no more sense than the people who think waste heat from any other type of power plant warm the earth. If the energy is being used on the surface the waste heat produced will be released on or near the surface no matter what the energy source is. Coal, natural gas, geothermal, nuclear, cold fusion, beamed space solar...irrelevant! All the released stored energy or beamed energy is ultimately expressed as heat.


Sub and OS, you need to think about this using basic thermodynamics at the macro level of the planet itself. It is a round ball and intercepts solar flux at a constant rate exactly the same as the cross sectional area exposed to the Sun. The only variables being distance from the Sun and the solar output of our star.

Now think of adding EXTRA ENERGY above and beyond that intercepted by the planet itself. Whatever means you use to capture such energy, however you use it, the net result will (because of entropy) always be the natural heating of the planet PLUS the amount you added from space.

The reason it is commonly called "Thermo-Goddamnics" it because it is frequently inconvenient.

You're citing your intuition, not science. I never said the additional solar input would have no effect. I said (or implied) it would be insignificant over time compared to the GHG production it would save, IF its energy were used in PLACE of burning FF's.

GHG's matter a lot because they're long term effects.

A tiny bit of local warming that doesn't change the atmosphere in any meaningful way won't have a meaningful impact after a short period of time. Will a tiny extra amount of heat be generated? Yes. Will the vast majority of that be radiated into space within a week or at most a month? Yes.

However, the impact of changes in solar irradiance on global warming is small compared to GHG's. This is well established science. For example:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/sc ... X-PiYTytNA

Hint: It's warming rapidly, yet we are in a downtrend in solar irradiance, as the following link shows.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/solar- ... arming.htm

So now, you're arguing that a VERY tiny amount of that solar energy increase is going to have a meaningful impact on warming, vs. the long term reduction that energy would allow in GHG production.

That's like arguing that the gravitational effects of an ant 5 miles from a town are significant compared to those of the mountain range it is standing on.

The whole "the sun is the primary cause of global warming" is a denialist claim that has been studied and rejected.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Previous

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests