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THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby misterno » Sat 31 Dec 2016, 09:24:33

I think you guys are talking about net metering at the wholesale level

Because netmetering at consumer level does not exist in TX

Right?
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 31 Dec 2016, 09:26:42

misterno wrote:I think you guys are talking about net metering at the wholesale level

Because netmetering at consumer level does not exist in TX

Right?

I wouldn't know about Texas. I described what it is in general but the rules vary State by State and will probably change over the coming years.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 31 Dec 2016, 09:58:20

Thanks to deregulating electricity in Texas now allows consumers to benefit from solar without installing their own panels. The Rockman can buy electricity from any generator and my local utility is requiered to derliver it to me. This is part of the dynamics Georgetown, Texas, is going to use to go 100% alt for the next 20 years. Part of that supply will come from a company building a big solar field. The customers will pay above rate initially which makes the project financial viable for the solar investors. Long term the customers will pay below rate and also avoid the volatility of NG prices...NG used to generate a lot of electrify here.

And then there's new development. From 2015:

"The prominent solar leasing company SolarCity is partnering with the utility company MP2 Energy to bring “full” net metering to the Dallas–Fort Worth region of Texas — thereby putting solar energy in a very competitive position with utility power. Once instituted, the partnership will reportedly allow homeowners in the area to pay less for solar electricity than for utility power for the first time — for the first time without any local incentives, that is.

As far as the net metering goes, it should be remembered that, in Texas (until now), most electricity providers have set limits on credits for solar energy “produced” — and/or have required homeowners/leasers to forfeit “unused” solar energy at the end of the month. The new partnership, though, will change this — with MP2 Energy not implementing any kind of cap for its program, and allowing customers to carry forward any excess generation to subsequent monthly bills. Otherwise known as “full” net metering.

“MP2’s pure ‘net metering’ program is truly the first of its kind in Texas, finally making solar a viable option for residential customers,” Starcher stated. “The terms of this program can allow customers to see immediate savings on solar, and make government and local incentives — which have decreased in the past few years — less important. It demonstrates that the value of solar to electricity providers is increasing and is aligned with retail rates.”

Also worth noting is that MP2 Energy will allow customers to lock in a fixed rate for a 1–2 year period — rather than being left subject to variable prices (and/or the whims of utility companies). Interestingly, customers will also have the option of terminating their contracts without any kinds of penalties or fees. Considering that Texas is one of the biggest electricity markets in the US, this news is notable — especially considering the state’s substantial solar energy potential.

“With an average of 240 sunny days per year, Texas is often considered a sleeping giant when it comes to its potential for solar power, and unlocking this state has huge implications for the solar industry at large,” stated Jeff Starcher, chairman and CEO of MP2 Energy. “To date, solar has only worked where there are local incentives. With this new partnership, we are making solar a practical option for residential customers in Texas.” Here’s a quick overview, as worded in a recent email sent to CleanTechnica:

Under the program, SolarCity will install solar panels to provide solar electricity to Texas homeowners, and homeowners will sign up with MP2 for any additional electricity needs. MP2 will track customers’ solar energy production and consumption every month. Customers who produce more than they consume will be credited at the full-retail value for excess production, including transmission and distribution service charges. While the program will initially only be available to those in the Dallas–Fort Worth area, the plan is for it to expand to eventually encompass much of the state… and perhaps more?

Those interested can find out more at SolarCity’s website, or via phone (1-888-SOL-CITY).

And, once more, amazing developments in the state which is the largest fossil fuel producer in the country.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 01 Jan 2017, 13:21:42

ROCKMAN wrote:And then there's new development. From 2015:

"The prominent solar leasing company SolarCity is partnering with the utility company MP2 Energy to bring “full” net metering to the Dallas–Fort Worth region of Texas — thereby putting solar energy in a very competitive position with utility power. Once instituted, the partnership will reportedly allow homeowners in the area to pay less for solar electricity than for utility power for the first time — for the first time without any local incentives, that is.

As far as the net metering goes, it should be remembered that, in Texas (until now), most electricity providers have set limits on credits for solar energy “produced” — and/or have required homeowners/leasers to forfeit “unused” solar energy at the end of the month. The new partnership, though, will change this — with MP2 Energy not implementing any kind of cap for its program, and allowing customers to carry forward any excess generation to subsequent monthly bills. Otherwise known as “full” net metering.

And this sounds great. Now, how do Texans who invest in an expensive residential solar array in say, the next few years, know they won't be completely screwed by the politicians and their buddies in the utility industry, like was done recently in Nevada?

http://www.npr.org/2016/03/11/470097580 ... -lights-on

SolarCity had to abandon its Nevada business due to retroactive rule changes that financially shafted homeowners who had installed solar arrays, by revoking most of the subsidies.

...

I speak as a Kentuckian who has an interest in intalling a solar array, who would like it to be reasonably cost effective over time -- and observes how little trust one can have in politicians to honor commitments to homeowners about such rules. So though everyone doesn't have a dog directly in the Texas or Nevada fight -- it would be nice to be able to have some confidence in how the game will be played. (Note: If Nevada had insisted on grandfathering homeowners with completed installs and installs started by date X, then I'd be much less concerned/angered by what happened).

(And I'm not saying I'll never install solar panels. However, if I have to do it assuming NO subsidies at all -- that greatly changes the cost effectiveness math.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 01 Jan 2017, 14:15:29

A valid point Outcast. I'll see if I can find any bond guarentees. But as I understand it the situation involves no local or state subsidies.

I think the bigger concern might be the strength of MP2 Energy utility company. SolarCity, if I understand the plan, is just providing the hardware. Once the panels are installed SolarCity is out of the picture for the most part. MP2 Energy is the utility the customers will be dealing with for the life of the service. IOW the project is centered by the utility company and not the solar panel manufacturer. SolarCity is just a materials supplier in the project. How secure is MP2 Emery's future? Again I'll look for details but the state doesn't allow a new utility to just incorporate itself without a good bit of scrutiny. And notice below that MP2 Energy is connected at the hip to ERCOT...the Grand Pooba of Texas electricity. LOL. And this isn't the only alt project MP2 Energy is working on:

"MP2 Energy announced that it has been chosen to partner with Apex Clean Energy (Apex) to supply both renewable energy and traditional electricity to Fort Hood, a 340 square mile base outside of Killeen, Texas that serves 218,000 military and family. Apex and MP2 will provide 100% of Fort Hood's electricity through a combination of renewable solar and wind energy and traditional grid power from ERCOT. Apex engaged MP2 Energy to provide retail services and serve as the Quality Scheduling Entity (QSE) to deliver the aforementioned 65.8 MW of solar and wind power. The solar power will be produced by the Phantom Solar facility on-site at Fort Hood, and the wind energy will be produced by the Cotton Plains Wind Energy Facility in Northwest Texas. MP2 will provide the remaining 60% of electricity needed to power Fort Hood through traditional electricity from ERCOT. MP2, in conjunction with Apex, will be involved on both the wholesale and retail sides of the agreement, which helps bring Fort Hood more efficient pricing and better risk-management."

And I'll point again why Texas is so far ahead of many states when it comes to alt energy: the support and control by the state government and ERCOT. And remember why the state and ERCOT have such absolute power (pun intended) - Texas is not part of the national electric grid...we make our own policies and regulations:

Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) manages the flow of electric power on the Texas Interconnection that supplies power to 24 million Texas customers – representing 85 percent of the state's electric load. ERCOT is the first independent system operator (ISO) in the United States and one of nine ISOs in North America. ERCOT works with the Texas Reliability Entity (TRE), one of eight regional entities within the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC) that coordinate to improve reliability of the bulk power grid.

As the ISO for the region, ERCOT dispatches power on an electric grid that connects 40,500 miles of transmission lines and more than 550 generation units. ERCOT also performs financial settlements for the competitive wholesale bulk-power market and administers retail switching for 6.7 million premises in competitive choice areas. ERCOT is a membership-based nonprofit corporation, governed by a board of directors and subject to oversight by the Public Utility Commission of Texas (PUC) and the Texas Legislature.

ERCOT's members include consumers, electric cooperatives, generators, power marketers, retail electric providers, investor-owned electric utilities (transmission and distribution providers), and municipally owned electric utilities.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 01 Jan 2017, 15:30:18

Now that I think of it: I've explained in the past how govt, private investors, consumers and utilities in the largest fossil fuel producing state came together to put together a world class wind power complex. But I don't think I mentioned the glue that brought this group together: EXCOT. To repeat what I just posted:

ERCOT's members include consumers, electric cooperatives, generators, power marketers, retail electric providers, investor-owned electric utilities (transmission and distribution providers), and municipally owned electric utilities.

And ERCOT isn't some collection of wishy-washer observers that gather for monthly lunches to hear updates. As a side note why the oil/NG industry, as big as it is Texas, doesn't have the politicians in its hip pocket. No one that sold coal, oil or NG for a living in Texas wanted to see a single wind turbine installed let alone one of the largest collections on the planet. EXCOT is the 800# gorilla in the room that won't be ignored:

Governance: The Public Utility Commission (PUC) has primary jurisdiction over activities conducted by ERCOT. Three PUC commissioners, including the chair, are appointed by the Governor of Texas. The ERCOT organization is governed by a board of directors made up of independent members, consumers and representatives from each of ERCOT's electric market segments. The Technical Advisory Committee (TAC) makes policy recommendations to the ERCOT Board of Directors. The TAC is assisted by five standing subcommittees as well as numerous workgroups and task forces. The ERCOT board appoints ERCOT's officers to direct and manage ERCOT's day-to-day operations, accompanied by a team of executives and managers responsible for critical components of ERCOT's operation.

Makes one wonder how the country's energy predicament might be different if there were a national version of ERCOT.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 11:22:18

In case some missed it in the News section I wanted them to be aware of a book our cohort Energy Investor just made the Rockman aware of: "The Grid - The Fraying Wires Between Americans and Our Energy Future".

Perhaps someone should send President-elect Trump a copy. Perhaps a much better infrastructure investment then much of many the tens of $BILLIONS spent on "shovel ready" projects in recent years. Maybe the new POTUS could appoint a czar of a new national EXCOT group. LOL. From a review:

"America's electrical grid, an engineering triumph of the twentieth century, is turning out to be a poor fit for the present. It's not just that the grid has grown old and is now in dire need of basic repair. Today, as we invest great hope in new energy sources--solar, wind, and other alternatives--the grid is what stands most firmly in the way of a brighter energy future. If we hope to realize this future, we need to re-imagine the grid according to twenty-first-century values. It's a project which forces visionaries to work with bureaucrats, legislators with storm-flattened communities, moneymen with hippies, and the left with the right. And though it might not yet be obvious, this revolution is already well under way."

See more at: http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-grid-9 ... Ypttu.dpuf

EI's post also allows the Rockman to point out for the umtenth time that the big alt energy build out in Texas would not have happened without $7 BILLION in tax payer monies being spent to improve the Texas grid. The Texas grid that is not part of the two national electric grids the book discusses.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby misterno » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 12:45:28

If Texas stays away from renewable energy due to politics or whatever, sooner or later the reality will catch up with ERCOT

If the price differential between neighboring states and TX reaches a certain point, ERCOT would I presume, will import power.

I know the transmission line connection between ERCOT and neighboring states are not that strong but they will utilize it at max if the price difference is high. And then people will question things, then it will be discussed in the state senate and who knows what

In other words no state can ignore renewables considering the fact that solar is getting cheaper by the day. Wind is limited so I am ignoring it for now.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 13:31:41

misterno wrote: Wind is limited so I am ignoring it for now.

Considering the amount of wind power being produced in Texas already why or how can you ignore it?
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 14:25:09

mis- "If Texas stays away from renewable energy..." Sorry, you've completely lost me there. Texas has been expanding wind power for years and is now getting into solar since it's become less expensive. It seems you think otherwise - where does that thought come from?

And you apparently understand nothing about EXCOT. It is not some profit driven private corporation. It is a non-profit group that conducts business for the benefit of Texas consumers. And remember EXCOT only developed because Texas specifically chose to not be part of the national grid:

"The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) manages the flow of electric power to 24 million Texas customers - representing about 90 percent of the state's electric load. As the independent system operator for the region, ERCOT schedules power on an electric grid that connects more than 46,500 miles of transmmission lines and 550 generating units. ERCOT also performs financial settlement for the competitive wholesale bulk-power market and administers retail switching for 7 million premises in competitive choice areas. ERCOT is a membership-based 501(c)(4) nonprofit corporation, governed by a board of directors and subject to oversight by the Public Utility Commission of Texas and the Texas Legislature. ERCOT's members include consumers, cooperatives, generators, power marketers, retail electric providers, investor-owned electric utilities (transmission and distribution providers,) and municipal-owned electric utilities.

I wasn't kidding about needing a national EXCOT. Can you imagine trying to upgrade either of the two national grids by negotiating with each state (and all the different players in each state) collectively? Even if the feds pay 100% of the cost imagine the infighting as each state had its own priorities.

How did ERCOT come about? A brief history:

1999 - The Texas Legislature Votes to Deregulate Retail Electric Market
1996 - ERCOT: First ISO (Independent System Operator) in the US
1995 - The first commercial wind farm in Texas began operations
1995 - Texas Legislature Votes to Deregulate Wholesale Generation
1970 - TIS Forms ERCOT to Comply with NERC Requirements
1941 - Utilities Band Together to Aid War Effort. At the beginning of World War II, several electric utilities in Texas banded together as the Texas Interconnected System (TIS) to support the war effort. They sent excess power supplies to industrial manufacturing companies on the Gulf Coast to provide reliable electricity supplies for energy-intensive aluminum smelting. Recognizing the reliability advantages of remaining interconnected, the TIS members continued to use and develop the interconnected grid. TIS members adopted official operating guides for their interconnected power system and established two monitoring centers within the control centers of two utilities, one in North Texas and one in South Texas.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Fri 03 Mar 2017, 19:08:25

PV longevity test at high noon:

I did a load test on my oldest PV panels today. I had to replace the 24 volt water pump they've been powering for several years and decided to clean these panels, check the terminal contacts, and load them up. I hooked them through a 100 amp shunt paired with an amp meter and hooked them to two 24 volt dc water pumps under load. I figured the two dc motors (rated at 5 amps each) would pull whatever power these panels were producing.

The amp draw from the pumps was 6.1 amps at 23.9 volts = 145.79 watts. The rated wattage of these panels (2x75 watts) is 150 watts, the day was clear and the temperature was about 55F. These panels, manufactured October, 1994, have been in constant use since December, 1994, give or take a couple of months between jobs..

Image

Image

I'm quite happy with the results, and confident that the numbers are reasonably accurate. Over 22 years of service from these little gems, and the best thing is, I got them for free. I have another of these panels happily powering the vent fans in our green house.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 11:06:42

That sounds quite good. I have a memory block when it comes to our panels, and now the tags have fallen off. Hopefully I wrote that info down somewhere.

I THINK I have 2 - 90 Watt Siemens panels. (I have previously said they were 190 watt panels. Dooh!).

They worked well when we were at a N-S oriented dock and I could tilt them appropriately. But now that we are moving they are not being as helpful. We spend the vast majority of our time on anchor and the boat swings back and forth a good bit.

So I'm looking at adding an LG 320 watt panel. I'm not 100% sure that my attachments are adequate for the wind load. My big fear is that it would rotate under high wind up into the wind gen blades. So I'm arguing with myself about the project. Ideally I'll remount the 2 existing panels to the back of my arch and put the new panel where the existing panels are. That would give me 500watts rating of solar.

Last summer I had to take the wind gen down so we could lift the boat. I left it laying on the deck. For whatever reason the generator filled with rainwater. I emptied it out, found little corrosion. I let it dry in the hot sun and doused it WD-40. It sounds like it has a wee roughness in the bearings but otherwise is OK.

This morning the batteries were down more than expected given the wind we had last night. I went through the system and found a couple of loose contacts. Tightened them up and we are charging just fine now.

One wonders what happens. These contacts are on a heavy duty terminal strip and the entire thing was coated with liquid electrical tape. So obviously the nuts didn't turn. But now I got an extra half turn on some. Been a few years since installation, but still seems weird.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 11:24:06

Hi Newf
Not sure if you've been doing this, but, especially in a marine environment, all of your electrical connections should be coated with di-electric grease, known as "De-Ox", "Ox-Gard", and by other names. Cheap insurance that prevents corrosion and ceasing of screws, etc. I use it on all of my connections and haven't had any problems.

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https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gardner-Bender ... nd/4514334
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 12:22:19

Yes, thanks. Have a couple of tubes. I also use lanolin a lot for purely mechanical connections.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 12:29:42

Commercial solar finally starting to catch up with wind power in Texas. From last January:

Largest Solar Power Plant In Texas Now Delivering To CPS Energy Customers

"The largest solar farm in Texas is now owned by business mogul and billionaire Warren Buffett. The Public Utilities Commission of Texas recently approved the sale of Alamo 6 Solar Farm to Alamo 6 Solar Holdings LLC, which is owned by Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc. Located in Pecos County, Texas, the 110 MW Alamo 6 Solar project is comprised of nearly 430,800 solar modules and can generate enough renewable energy for approximately 60,000 households per year.

Alamo 6 Solar Farm is the largest and final part of a series of seven solar power plants which supply 450 MW of clean energy to San Antonio’s electric utility CPS Energy."

Granted still not as good as going off grid. But 60,000 families that wouldn't bother putting up their own panels will get 100% of their electricity from solar now.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 13:12:25

Not sure if this applies to your situation, but the combination of heating/cooling cycles and vibration have been known to loosen things up unless they are really torqued tight and have a lock washer of some sort to damp out the vibration effects.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 13:34:14

Tanada wrote:Not sure if this applies to your situation, but the combination of heating/cooling cycles and vibration have been known to loosen things up unless they are really torqued tight and have a lock washer of some sort to damp out the vibration effects.

The strips of metal between the washers held by the bolt try to expand every time it gets hot outside. The washers prevent expansion that way but allow expansion to the sides. When it cools back down it is free to contract in all directions and the strips get just a bit thinner. Give it several years of hot and cold cycles plus 95 in the summer sun to minus 35 F in the winter and it will take a quarter to a half turn on the nut to snug it back up. That is one of the reasons there are so many bolts in a bridge beam connection and they tighten them up to such a high tension. 45,000 psi or more.
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 13:40:22

I use motorcycle chain wax to protect against corrosion on my battery terminals. Really convenient, comes in a spray can, and can be wiped off with a kerosene rag if you need to. Every couple of years I take all my battery cables off, clean them up, inspect, re-torque, and respray.
https://www.revzilla.com/product/maxima-chain-wax
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 14:18:34

Just to restate......these connections were coated with liquid rubber. The kind of stuff that you dip pliers handles in to give them a coating. If they had back off even a quarter turn I would have seen distortion in the rubber coating, which was tightly adhered.

I frequently use LocTite because vibration is a bitch. i had not on these connections because they were rubber coated.

I coated them because they are under the floorboards. No water should ever get to them, but just in case.

Filled under "Damned if I know."
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Re: THE Solar Cell Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 15:34:12

Newfie wrote:

Filled under "Damned if I know."

:-D My file with that label is chuck full.
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