Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 23:06:43

baha wrote:BTW - We were just told there would be no more Powerwalls available until after the first of the year...interesting...I suppose he is using all the battery production for the Model 3. We got a total of 9 and could sell plenty more. I don't see this as a good sign...

Yes, that does seem disappointing. OTOH, I understand why they want to make as many Model 3's as possible. However, if they're going to advertise the Powerwall and say it's available, and then quickly impose a 4 month (plus possibly X more months starting in Jan.), I think that sends a TERRIBLE message to potential consumers about Tesla's commitment on the Powerwall front.

I know Tesla fanbois will forgive Tesla almost no matter what, at least for awhile. I think the markets, market commentators, and regular customers will be a lot less forgiving if Musk repeatedly does stuff like this to maximize short term profits, or deal with over-commitments he's made which amount to little more than marketing hype.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4196
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Fri 08 Sep 2017, 05:16:09

Ha ha, talk with a bunch of geeky dudes on a web forum and you might learn something :)

One dude showed me how to take a screen shot of my phone. I hate smart phones...get a life...

But OK, here you go...the general power flow display.

power flow.jpg
power flow.jpg (91.59 KiB) Viewed 4814 times


And the detailed graph...

power graph.jpg
power graph.jpg (85.31 KiB) Viewed 4814 times


It's a nice app. But what happens if I beat my phone with a hammer?

That was a perfect solar day. I made over 40 kW-hrs in one day...life is good :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 05:10:03

And so it begins...

Duke power has a Home energy website where you can compare your usage with others and ask questions about efficiency. I have used half what they say an efficient house should use for over two years. There is a forum to ask questions of the 'expert'.

I just posted the following question...

I just installed 6.7 kilowatts of solar panels and the first Tesla Powerwall in NC. I have Lithium battery based self-consumption. I make power during the day, store it in the Powerwall and use it at night. Last week I exported 95 kW-hrs and only used 6 kW-hrs from the grid. I will never pay an electric bill again.

My question is why doesn't Duke Power pay me for the power I am exporting. I am giving you clean solar power for free and then you sell it to someone else for 11 cents a kW-hr. In the last month I have exported a net of 600kW-hrs...you owe me $66. Please remit at your earliest convenience.

Of course they review these things before the public sees it so I bet it never gets published. But this is just the first step :twisted:
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 06:00:47

Net Metering is the law in California. I take advantage of it with my smaller 2.8 kW array. I selected the variable electric rate schedule so that I get the maximum valuation for the excess power I return to the gid on warm Summer afternoons when A/C is in use around me. I pay a few bucks a month of fees, and my excess power offsets some of the natural gas consumption in the same bill, I really only have a gas bill during the short Winter space heating season.

FWIW, I don't think that your complaint is going to cause Net Metering implementation in your state anytime soon. California has made astonishing progress on a goal which has recently been proposed to increase from 50% to 100% renewables by 2045. Another bill has been introduced to require all new construction to include solar PV or wind turbines, likely both will pass the State Assembly. But California has also proved just how unfair it is to burden a few hapless people who need the grid for 100% of their power with all the grid costs. The other states have noticed.

As long as you are attached to the electric grid, you owe a grid connection fee, and need to pay your share of grid maintenance.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 06:57:53

Hi KJ,
I will pay $12 to connect to the grid. If they raise the minimum I will disconnect.

We have net-metering here in NC too. They credit my production for a year and give it back in winter, but at the end of a year any over production is wiped out.

The point is, with the Powerwall, I don't need their stupid net-metering. They are providing NO service to me...other than taking my over-production for free. I am offsetting their dirty coal fired plants with ash problems, and reactors with cracks, with a little silicon in my backyard.

Again, I am going to give them gas...The local newspaper is more willing to publish controversial green energy news :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 07:00:38

OK, I will not disconnect for a while...

They think they have me by the throat? As long as I am connected, I have them by the tail. I will swing them around like a dead snake. The momentum is on my side
:)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby GHung » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 08:28:43

Baha, with Duke Energy and their Republican lackeys controlling things in NC, I wish you luck but doubt you'll get any joy. Folks in my area have an EMC who works with TVA to give some sort of payback for surplus power, but I don't know how it works. I know they have to pay the membership fees and the minimum connection charge which is about $18 I think.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1881
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 08:48:41

Ha ha, I take joy just in the fight!

In fact, that's why I'm here. I didn't do this just for my own benefit (thank you Cog). I did this to prove it can be done. You doubt me, I will get in your face and prove you wrong.

I watch these things...there are more than a majority in NC that support alternative energy. It hasn't become a pivotal issue yet...just give me time.

Duke Power should take notice. I have you in my sights. Cooperate or be put down, your choice...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 14:27:08

What, pray tell, is the goal of such political activism? The power grid is part of the deteriorating infrastructure of this country. The high tension high capacity feedlines are well-maintained, the problem is mainly the "last mile" connection, all to frequently this is a 50+ year old pole transformer on a deteriorated wooden pole. But that is also the very part needed to utilize the grid as a lossless battery for a residence.

I question whether the Powerwall will have paid for itself before the cells have degraded and need replacement. The Powerwall cost is still a bit high and the payback is prolonged if one is only paying the minimum fee for the grid connect. Note that I don't doubt WHETHER this can be done, only whether it makes financial sense. I too will have such a system as long as the cost is not extravagent, as I too am a power geek/fan.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby GHung » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 14:53:31

Jeez, KJ, people and societies make all sorts of investments that don't make perfect financial sense. Try to rise above the $$$$$.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1881
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 15:16:39

I have been on a grid-connect PV system for 7 years now. Don't think about it much, my wife pays the bills lol Just upgraded to 5 KW name-plate (is that the right descriptor?) on the roof.

I made the decision because it was the right think to do and I got an inheritance. Do I think it was worth it? Sure, I gives me bragging rights among the Greens (I am a long long long long-time bona fide Green. I even have a Green Calling Card lol). Will it mitigate peak oil? No. Will it fix the climate? No. (Few can afford what I could) Anyway, the climate doesn't need fixing. Humans need fixing lol
Haven't you heard? I'm a doomer!
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 26543
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 04:32:24

I get tired of hearing people who know nothing about energy tell me what will work and what won't. Solar can't do this and batteries can't do that.

It may or may not be true. The only way to find out is to try. I know there are limits and solar is not a panacea that will solve all our problems, but you have to start somewhere...and cold fusion ain't it :)

I don't have a problem with the last mile of the grid, that's the part I would like to use to distribute my clean power to my neighbors. It's the first mile that has issues. Duke Power does not support alternative energy unless they are making money on it. They don't care about the planet all they care about is profit. I really don't want to put them down...I just want them to show a little social responsibility. They want to build nuke plants...I want them to build out the last mile. We need to work together to build a system that is clean and flexible.

The only weapon I have to use against them is public opinion. How better to argue my case than to lead by example. If they want to say it's not feasible and we need coal to survive. I will invite anyone over to the house to prove them wrong.

Money only has the value you give it. Wait a week and it will change. The value of the power I produce and the independence it gives me will never change. The money I spent could be lost in the stock market in a few days. I will have power for 20 years.

Cmon KJ, I know you understand the concept of toys :) Has that 4x4 rock crawlin' jeep of yours ever paid for itself?

If you want to talk finance...what I literally did was take money out of Exxon/Mobil's pocket and put it in Solaredge and Tesla's pocket...That is how you change the world :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 05:46:56

Thank you KJ, Ghung, and Pstarr. Even OS is interested.

Ha ha, I have peaked your interest in solar and batteries. I have garnered attention and made people think...

The point being...lead and people will follow.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 07:12:21

Baha, I have enjoyed your recent posts and I have a question. I am wondering if eventually this power wall battery would have an application here on our site. As I have previously mentioned we generate 7.6kw 24/7 with a pelton wheel. The output is direct AC 220V 60hz. No batteries, no inverters. Simple. We dump what we don't use at any given time to keep the generator at maximum production. A load controller manages and distributes the power between usage and dump.

There are brief moments in any given day when peak usage exceeds the 7.6kw. Power tool usage on construction site at the same time as the coffee roaster is on and the kitchen restaurant is running the coffee brewer,microwave and toasting bread is an example. These moments when peak usage exceeds our power output as I just stated are not of long duration. Could a power wall battery help by adding that extra few KW at those moments?

There would be the cost of the battery plus inverter etc. I can imagine....

I know your expertise is solar but you might have some insights regarding this.

Thanks!
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6047
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 07:46:50

Of course Ibon,
That is exactly what the AC coupled Powerwall does. It has a built in inverter/charger that reacts instantly to the loads. It monitors the circuits with CTs and does what you tell it to do.

It can charge at a 5 kW rate or discharge at the same rate. If there is excess power it charges, if there is a sudden load it discharges. All set up before hand and totally automatic. All you do is connect it to the loads panel and install CTs in the right place and it will do its thing.

It ain't cheap, but it sure is sweet :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby GHung » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 08:12:04

Ibon wrote:Baha, I have enjoyed your recent posts and I have a question. I am wondering if eventually this power wall battery would have an application here on our site. As I have previously mentioned we generate 7.6kw 24/7 with a pelton wheel. The output is direct AC 220V 60hz. No batteries, no inverters. Simple. We dump what we don't use at any given time to keep the generator at maximum production. A load controller manages and distributes the power between usage and dump.

There are brief moments in any given day when peak usage exceeds the 7.6kw. Power tool usage on construction site at the same time as the coffee roaster is on and the kitchen restaurant is running the coffee brewer,microwave and toasting bread is an example. These moments when peak usage exceeds our power output as I just stated are not of long duration. Could a power wall battery help by adding that extra few KW at those moments?

There would be the cost of the battery plus inverter etc. I can imagine....

I know your expertise is solar but you might have some insights regarding this.

Thanks!


Ibon: You just described the a normal operating mode of any basic off-grid system. You can do what you want with an Outback inverter and a couple of regular L16 batteries. The batteries would last a long time since they aren't being deeply cycled and are under constant charge. Add automatic watering and maintenance will be very low. My Outback inverter/chargers have two AC inputs: one for a generator and one for grid connection and can be programmed to charge the battery at various rates (4 stage charging). They also have relays for dump loads such as hot water.
http://outbackpower.com/

.... and Outback is geared toward making field repairs (if needed for these super-reliable units). Most parts are free and they have online videos that step you through the repairs. Try repairing your own Tesla (I'm sure they have a "no right to repair" clause). I don't spend money on anything that I'm prohibited from repairing myself.
Last edited by GHung on Sat 16 Sep 2017, 08:24:31, edited 1 time in total.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1881
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 08:53:50

Also, you can daisy chain up to 4 powerwalls on one panel. That gives an instant output of 20 kW. Overkill in my opinion. I have never seen my house use more than 3 kW at any time...but I don't have teenagers :)

We just installed a two Powerwall system at a very large house with 10 kW of solar. He may not be very efficient, but he is now grid free :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 09:04:40

You're right Ghung,
Outback has been doing this for years. And maintenance systems are good. But that is not the same as automatic. An array of 1000's of Lithium batteries can take charge at any level up to an instant 5 kW. And give it back with 90% efficiency.

And can be operated by a soccer mom...no offense intended :)

You know I agree with the fix it yourself approach. Sometimes you have to take the next step. I don't need to fix it...Tesla will replace it for 10 years...And then if it breaks I will open it and have a great time puncturing the cells and watching them explode :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 10:21:04

Ibon, I agree with baha and Ghung, that is how a battery backup and synchronous inverter system works.

On the dollars and sense side, you are already running a mini-hydropower plant, which means that your power cost per kilowatt hour is high enough that a Powerwall might make economic sense, but to tell for sure, you will need to find a distributor in Panama and ask for their price. My guess being that they would be happy to help you and that both the Mt. Totumas resort and the Powerwall dealer will both benefit from the publicity.

On the publicity side, have you ever thought of contacting National Geographic magazine? I have been reading it for decades, and have seen many fine resorts and other places publicized. You could try dangling those colorful frog pictures you posted a while back, they were amazing. National Geographic also does articles on nature preserves and bringing tech to jungles, you would seem to be hitting several of their buttons.

For you, the Powerwall will both be a capacity extension for peak power (which them becomes the sum of your generator output and the Powerwall's 5kW) and a backup that will supply energy during a brief outage when you are performing maintenance on your water turbine. Without the need to uselessly dump excess energy, you could also run at a slightly greater average electrical load - perhaps 10-25% greater than your present average, perhaps enabling the adding of another couple of rental units.

Failing in the finding of a Powerwall dealer, perhaps you could work out a deal with baha if he becomes an installer himself.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 10:44:29

OK...An all expense paid trip to Panama :) Done deal...Just let me get the VW running. Don't tell my wife, I will never hear the end of it.

I don't need a cabin...I'll stay in the hot tub :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests