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The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 15 Aug 2017, 19:32:56

In actual fact, there is only one thing that can help us retain our lifestyles, and that is to change them. I believe that we can run modified American lifestyles on about 1/6th the energy we now consume. This requires for the most part a total infrastructure renewal: new residences, new vehicles, new workplaces, all designed for energy efficiency, plus the mandated withdrawal of all devices and buildings that don't meet the stringent new standards.

Once 5/6ths of the energy requirements are gone, the renewables we already have, plus the energy storage tech we have, are sufficient already.

So many people focus upon retaining intact the energy hog lifestyles we have. Thus we are doomed, because such lifestyles are obsolete.

In the 1980's I visited California while working at the job I had accepted, before my family could move here. I lived in a tiny insulated A-Frame house in a meadow. It had a 12v battery and a 350 watt wind turbine with hand-carved blades, which kept a single flourescent lantern and a B&W 9" TV going. It had a solar cooker I never used on weekdays, and a Svea 123 camp stove that burned unleaded gasoline for cooking at night.

I was comfortable, showering at work and eating breakfast and lunch at the workplace cafeteria. My host and I split the per diem allowance they paid me, and I quite enjoyed the experience for three months, using zero grid energy and a half gallon of gasoline, most of which went for heating hot water for dishes and coffee. Far more civilized than camping, as well.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 04:41:21

My system is not dependent on the Internet. The inverter boots from a micro-SIMM card that could be snail-mailed if necessary. It helps during commissioning but after that it's just iceing...Without it, I have to stand in front of the inverter to monitor production and I don't get pretty graphs :) Even as an installer I can only make administrative changes over the net. I have default passwords for every inverter manufacturer I work with. If I'm on-site I can cause all kinds of trouble.

The installation manual plainly states that the grid is required for commissioning. After that, not at all. In fact, my inverter has a 9v transistor battery that it can use to boot up if the main battery is dead.

No offense, but Ghung's system is the one that requires periodic maintenance and a smart owner. Mine is as close to Plug and Play as you can get right now. Everything has CPUs these days and they are very reliable. I am not a fast crash believer. Somehow we will continue to stumble along and I will have replacement parts if I need them :) for now...

Pstarr - That active and passive solar you have is priceless when the grid goes down. The wood stove works a lot better when it doesn't have to overcome a drafty un-insulated house. You and KJ are the best customers for a Powerwall. Your existing PV would still work when the grid is down and you could power the pumps on your thermal system and well.

Prepper, schmepper...I have embraced my connections with Mother Earth and Father Sun. I treat them with respect and they shower me with rewards. I am continuously surprised and humbled by how perfect and simple it all is. I would never have known these things living in a 4 bedroom ranch house in suburbia. I use 1/8th the power of the typical house my size and I'm not sure what part of the energy hog lifestyle I am missing. I camp pretty comfortably as well. Saving the world is good but I will be happy saving myself, my wife, and the topsoil in my backyard :)
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 10:48:36

Ok, here's a funny story...
I have lived here 6 years. The meter reader has never stopped by...until yesterday. It seems the old digital meter that doesn't support power producers can talk remotely to the office. The new fancy meter that monitors my production can't. Do What?

I suppose this is the excuse Duke power uses to claim I am such a burden on their grid. They are lobbying in NC to charge a fee for small energy producers, while taking my power for free!

I'm telling you, I'm going to have them disconnected :x Or my next project will be a directed energy weapon. Can you say directed EMP? I love watching transformers explode :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 11:44:42

baha wrote:Ok, here's a funny story...
I have lived here 6 years. The meter reader has never stopped by...until yesterday. It seems the old digital meter that doesn't support power producers can talk remotely to the office. The new fancy meter that monitors my production can't. Do What?

That's pretty bizarre. The big change for utilities generally over the past decade has been a meter replacement campaign, where they switched to meters with radios to reduce or eliminate meter reader labor.

Wells Fargo isn't the only crooked outfit that should be sued out of existence. Not that the PTB will let that happen.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 12:04:12

I like that baha: solar-powered EMP lol What's next? Tofu MRE's?
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 14:43:30

baha, I would plan on wired internet to those two Powerwalls for at least a couple of years. Elon Musk is infamous here in Silicon Valley for never ever releasing mature software. He will revise yours at least a couple of times IMHO, and you should want that too.

FYI the SmartMeters here in the Valley use cellular modem technology, and report both natural gas and electrical consumption to PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric), as well as power production via a seperate meter with a seperate modem. But we are blessed with "Net Metering", and I selected the variable rate schedule and the rooftop panels produce power during the peak rate period, so I get compensated at the peak price. It's a good deal for me, offsets some of the gas consumption. I still owe about $11 per month in fees and surcharges imposed by the same agency that mandated the Net Metering (this has grown from $4 to $11 over the years). I too can go online and see graphs and tables for the last 5 years.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 15:22:46

Yes, I have direction from Tesla. They said the Powerwall must be connected to the internet at all times. If not, the 10 year warranty is reduced to 4 years. Wow!

That's ok...when I get a hold of it, it will be crying for it's mama all day long. :)

Pstarr - I was just kidding. If I disappear you will know they took me away and put me in a box.

BTW - I only get one Powerwall. The other one at the shop belongs to someone else. But I get to go first :)
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The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Wed 30 Aug 2017, 18:38:38

I am typing this post on Lithium Battery Power!! :)

Powerwall.jpg
Tesla AC coupled Powerwall 2.0
Powerwall.jpg (53.4 KiB) Viewed 2796 times


I haven't passed inspection yet but who cares. There may be a hurricane coming my way.

Turns out our local Tesla Rep used to work for me. He was on my install crew for a while and is a smart guy. He said mine is the first Powerwall installed in NC. Seems fitting for someone who has lived and worked this dream for 10 years.

It's sad that this occasion is so mixed. If I had a boat I would go to Texas...but I will provide power during our next storm.

That's what I do :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Fri 01 Sep 2017, 07:20:32

For those of you interested in the future here are some stats.

The Powerwall 2.0 has a usable capacity of 13.5 kW-hrs. It is rated for 100% discharge and is 100% warrantied for 10 years. I waited until our hydraulic lift came in so I could mount it on the wall. It weighs 250 lbs.

An equivalent lead acid 48v battery pack would have to be 562.5 Amp-hrs (assuming 50% discharge). It would take up my whole mechanical room floor and weigh around 2000 lbs. I would have to check the water levels every 6 months and the warranty would be 2-5 years prorated. If you don't use it much it might last 12 years. If you use it every day (to 50% discharge) it will only last 5-8 years.

The powerwall is housed in pressed sheet metal, like a car fender (I was expecting plastic). There is no way to open the unit. There is a very tight wiring access on one side. The energy gateway (transfer switch and controller) is top notch. The materials are high quality, the hardware is Seimens, and the monitor is a Neurio. I have already called tech support for Internet support and got a human right away. So far it's going well...

The radiator on the Powerwall 2.0 is 4"x8"...so far it is very quiet :)
IMG_0771.jpg
IMG_0771.jpg (61.15 KiB) Viewed 2528 times


It's so funny to me...I am running my house on AA batteries :) What will they think of next?

BTW - I have this wired where I can kill the grid anytime I want :) I can switch it in and out all I want and the computer and TV don't even notice. But the PV inverter drops offline and waits 248 seconds to reconnect. Modern Technology :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 05:30:47

The control software on the Powerwall is sweet. It will not charge from the grid even in backup mode. It waits until there is excess PV power and charges from that. There are only two modes available in this release. Backup and Self-consumption.

I am running in self-consumption mode now and will continue, I didn't buy this thing to look at it. It monitors the grid and PV circuits and acts accordingly. If the PV can carry the load, it waits. If the load gets too big it kicks in a little power. Here is the last 24 hours.

Screen Shot 2017-09-05 at 6.05.05 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-09-05 at 6.05.05 AM.png (150.03 KiB) Viewed 2056 times


The Powerwall is connected directly to the critical loads panel. When it carries the load the PV inverter doesn't see it, it just assumes there is no load. This graph only shows load on the grid, not the Powerwall. But it does show when the Powerwall is charging. You can see where it started taking charge in the morning and used everything available until it was fully charged at 11 am. My total imports from the grid was .86 kW-hrs. Take that Duke Power!!

Please do keep in mind that I am a Physicist, and a design engineer with 6 patents. I designed and built this system by myself. I understand how it works right down to the speed of the electrons thru the wires...not bad for a brain-damaged pot smoker :razz:
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 10:54:33

I would not have a problem owning or managing a Powerwall either. But you have pointed out the main weakness with these units: only the uber geeks like you, me, and Elon are lusting to own one. My wife or daughter, for example, think that electrons are like tiny little peas flowing through the wires as if they were intestines.

My plans have recently changed, and I am now reconsidering my next residence on Nantucket. Solar is not at all practical (they call it "New England" for a reason) but wind turbines are an interesting idea, if I can find one that is hurricane-proof, self feathering in a storm, and with a long reliable life.

Perhaps what I do on Nantucket is leave the oil burner in place, and add a ground-sourced heat pump and another coil to the hot water tank that feeds the baseboard heat. Or a mini-split unit that gives me A/C and heat both. Plus of course, a Powerwall and wind turbine.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby GHung » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 11:10:54

KaiserJeep wrote:I would not have a problem owning or managing a Powerwall either. But you have pointed out the main weakness with these units: only the uber geeks like you, me, and Elon are lusting to own one. My wife or daughter, for example, think that electrons are like tiny little peas flowing through the wires as if they were intestines.

My plans have recently changed, and I am now reconsidering my next residence on Nantucket. Solar is not at all practical (they call it "New England" for a reason) but wind turbines are an interesting idea, if I can find one that is hurricane-proof, self feathering in a storm, and with a long reliable life.

Perhaps what I do on Nantucket is leave the oil burner in place, and add a ground-sourced heat pump and another coil to the hot water tank that feeds the baseboard heat. Or a mini-split unit that gives me A/C and heat both. Plus of course, a Powerwall and wind turbine.


Does the power wall allow for a wind option? My understanding is you have to buy the solar package or recharge from the grid. Also, are their restrictions in Nantucket on erecting wind turbines? Inquiring minds want to know but are too lazy/busy to find out.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 11:27:41

baha wrote:not bad for a brain-damaged pot smoker :razz:


Yep. Hear that PStarr? Maybe there's hope for your neurons too.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 13:03:28

KaiserJeep wrote:I would not have a problem owning or managing a Powerwall either. But you have pointed out the main weakness with these units: only the uber geeks like you, me, and Elon are lusting to own one.

Yup. For the us normal folks, who want someone else to install it and be responsible to fix it if something goes wrong, it's about economics and convenience, IMO. (Convenient to install and get running without too much mess or risk, and the convenience of having power, even if on a limited scale, for a day or two if the power goes out. And for me, the reliability factor for the roof is key. I HATE the idea of putting holes in my roof, and violating the roof warranty, especially on a new roof -- but from what I read, that is the conventional recommendation with standard solar panels. But if I get a basically indestructible roof (via Tesla) absent tornados, etc. (for a few decades or more) as part of the deal, that's a convenience once the work is done).

If Tony Seba et al is right, and the cost of the batteries and the solar continue to go down rapidly, then I think you'll start to see a LOT of these systems in many climates. If the price doesn't go down markedly, then you're looking more at markets like Southern CA where you have lots of sun and expensive electricity, and wait and see for most of us.

Again, this assumes that for the non-geeks that economics is the key factor.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 13:30:09

Nantucket is on NASA's list of the ten best wind power locations. However the site is a challenging one. The turbine would have to be above the pine trees. Also the natives are hostile. But there are other wind turbines, outside the town, and my new old home is really off the beaten path on a dirt road.

OS, having owned a set of rooftop panels for a few years, I would prefer that my next set of panels be ground installed, and on motorized tracking mounts. The tracking feature can add up to 40% output, depending on how far North you are.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 14:55:52

Thanks KJ, I think? I suppose I am a geek...but I try to hide it in public :)

The PV setup is part of the commissioning. The Powerwall knows how much solar it has available including brand and part number. I'm sure an SMA Windyboy would integrate just as well as a Sunnyboy. It monitors the circuit with a CT. If you don't set it up with solar it would probably have grid control options.

So far the things I have shown you are available to any dumb user :) As an installer I set this up during commissioning and you just enjoy looking at it. I haven't finished the Tesla app yet. But I have another toy.

The Eguage is the ultimate geek toy. It doesn't control anything but it can monitor everything and I can manipulate the data any way I want. I have been moving CTs and setting it up to independently monitor the PV and Powerwall. I am almost there.

Screen Shot 2017-09-05 at 2.54.18 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2017-09-05 at 2.54.18 PM.jpg (217.04 KiB) Viewed 1900 times


There is the last 24 hours. In this graph the red is output from the Powerwall, the green is PV output, and the white is PV power used to charge the Powerwall. When I am done I will have a numeric counter that compares charge to discharge and calculates return efficiency. And I can also verify the accuracy of all the other apps and Duke Power. Now that is pretty geeky :)

OS - I understand your concern. We use flashed L-feet that cannot leak. They interleave with the shingles and are aluminum. I can't tell you how many thousands of holes I have drilled in roofs and never fixed a leak...

Ghung - I didn't go thru the options available during commissioning. I went straight to Solaredge. Next time I am playing with it I will check the options...
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 05:45:14

Something else I haven't shown you yet...The Solaredge system can analyze production panel by panel. This is another benefit of the panel maximizers.

Screen Shot 2017-09-07 at 6.33.21 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2017-09-07 at 6.33.21 AM.jpg (96.96 KiB) Viewed 1630 times


I can use this app to analyze shading, soiling, and system failures over the net for all my Solaredge customers. My upper right panel gets the most shade in the morning...

BTW - I got the Tesla app working, but it only has a phone app. No PC app that I have found...so no screen shots :(
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:38:31

baha, do you know if the Powerwall is compatible with wind turbines? Also, does it interface or manage active 2-axis solar panel trackers?
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 14:19:27

baha wrote:BTW - I got the Tesla app working, but it only has a phone app. No PC app that I have found...so no screen shots :(

I'd let Tesla know you want a PC app, and what you'd like it to tell you (graphics, etc).

Seriously. If you're constructive in your request, Musk and Tesla have been pretty responsive from what I've read, to reasonable customer requests. As though, they actually get it, that happy customers will help them sell more of their product.

(Kind of outmoded today, I know. And yes, that was sarcasm, and yes, I think MANY businesses deserve it in spades).

Feel free to tell them you know someone (me) who would want a PC app that can give me data over time easily used by a PC app (not a smart phone app), if I'm going to spend big bucks on Powerwalls, a Tesla roof, etc. -- so it's not like you're the only customer/potential customer who wants this.

(I'd actually prefer to be able to do daily drops of data in CSV (or similar, Excel spreadsheet compatible) format so I can load it into a spreadsheet, and conveniently do my own analysis via whatever spreadsheet graphs I care to come up with, over whatever timeframe I choose, in addition to whatever stuff Tesla would care to provide).

In fact, I'll bet there are thousands now, and millions down the road.
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Re: The Rise of the Personal Power Plant

Unread postby baha » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 16:31:07

Hi KJ,
I just went thru the setup again. There are at least 100 manufacturers listed. I did not find an SMA WindyBoy (which is their wind turbine inverter). But I did see companies like Bergey Windpower, WindTerra, and Southwest Windpower. No doubt it supports wind power.

A two axis tracker is a stand-alone device. It is usually a 4" square box that attaches to the pole and has photodiodes attached to the array for sensors. And two servos that move the array...

You're right OS, I will do that. I have already posted on the Tesla forum to see if anyone else has ideas. I haven't had time to check it. But rest assured I will have a honny-do list for Elon :) I will tell him there are 100's of people who want to see the App! And I haven't seen any CSV downloades available...

BTW - We were just told there would be no more Powerwalls available until after the first of the year...interesting...I suppose he is using all the battery production for the Model 3. We got a total of 9 and could sell plenty more. I don't see this as a good sign...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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