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The Pressurized Air Car?

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Unread postby pilferage » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 02:18:27

They are cheaper to produce, can use gas/diesel (iirc), and if the manufacturers claims are true, will probably have longer range than most electrics.
Otoh, they are slower and less efficient. The efficiency hinges almost soley on how efficiently we can compress the air (for example, the least efficient air compressors have efficiencies of ~%10-15, which places the air car's efficiency in the range of ICE powered cars, if that can be brought up to ~%70 they'll be very competitive), but I doubt they'll ever be as energy efficient as battery electric. However, electric cars are vv heavy and aren't as cheap.
I'd bet on the air car in the long run because I think we'll go electric in a big way. The amount of energy we can gain from fission is staggering, not to mention fusion if we get that up and running in a few decades.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. "
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air car

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 11:46:48

After twelve years of reserch and development, Guy Negre has developed an engine that could become one of the biggest technological advances of this century. Its application to CAT vehicles gives them significant economical and environmental advantages. With the incorporation of bi-energy (compressed air + fuel) the CAT Vehicles have increased their driving range to close to 2000 km with zero pollution in cities and considerably reduced pollution outside urban areas.
As well, the application of the MDI engine in other areas, outside the automotive sector, opens a multitude of possibilities in nautical fields, co-generation, auxiliary engines, electric generators groups, etc. Compressed air is a new viable form of power that allows the accumulation and transport of energy. MDI is very close to initiating the production of a series of engines and vehicles. The company is financed by the sale of manufacturing licences and patents all over the world.

http://www.theaircar.com/


My husband is on their list to purchase.

So come on debunkers, tell me why the 'air car' is aptly named.
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Unread postby PhilBiker » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 11:51:33

It takes energy to compress the air.
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Unread postby scordry » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 12:12:47

Interesting.

I wonder what the energy conversion would be if one ran an air-compressor with a wind turbine? (Storing the energy in a compressed air tank, instead of a battery or as hydrogen gas.)

As PB noted, it takes energy to compress the air. The question would be this one: could air be compressed more efficiently under large scale production? I mean, if each home had its own compressor that was plugged-in (electrically) to create the compressed air, how would that compare to a compressed-air distribution system? "Fueling" one's car could be tantamount to filling one's tires at the gas station.

This technology might be a good way to improve overall performance and efficiency, but I don't see it as a long-term replacement suitable for allowing US surburbians to continue their love-affair with cheap transportation.

:)
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Unread postby threadbear » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 12:24:08

scordry wrote:Interesting.

I wonder what the energy conversion would be if one ran an air-compressor with a wind turbine? (Storing the energy in a compressed air tank, instead of a battery or as hydrogen gas.)

As PB noted, it takes energy to compress the air. The question would be this one: could air be compressed more efficiently under large scale production? I mean, if each home had its own compressor that was plugged-in (electrically) to create the compressed air, how would that compare to a compressed-air distribution system? "Fueling" one's car could be tantamount to filling one's tires at the gas station.

This technology might be a good way to improve overall performance and efficiency, but I don't see it as a long-term replacement suitable for allowing US surburbians to continue their love-affair with cheap transportation.

:)


At present it costs about $2.00 to travel 200 kilometers. This is a significant saving. I'm no cornucupian, but this looks like a real viable common sense solution. One that requires a certain amount of restraint, though. Electricity to compress isn't free.
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Unread postby FoxV » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 13:07:27

I'm very sceptical.

Compressing air is not very efficient (30% - 40%) and the engine would follow a similar inefficiency on decompression.

Compressed air is not a very good energy storage method. Notice that there is not statement on the website about how much distance you get from air alone (unfortunately I could not find the energy density for 300bar air)

The advantages this does have over an electric hybrid is that its already Plug-in ready (which is a big improvement), and the air tank is a lot cheaper than current batteries.

in the end, a test drive review of the car is in order before judgement can be passed. Anybody have any links, I couldn't find any and their news section is in spanish
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Unread postby alpha480v » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 16:00:01

This looks like a step in the right direction.I wonder what the cost of a new air car is?If they are going to be expensive like the new hybrid cars that are coming out,then myself,along with millions of other Americans,won't be able to afford them.These cars will have to be affordable to be a viable solution on a large scale.
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Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 03 Aug 2005, 20:09:37

2000 km driving range? Unless that stat is at about 15 mph constant speed, they're probably off by a factor of 10. I've read of electric golf carts that did 1,000 miles on one charge with zinc air batteries. But they went a steady 20 mph.

My car I am building is simulated to achieve 500 miles range at 20 mph. But in reality, it won't achieve near that. Range will be about 100 miles at 65 mph if you go easy on the throttle, if not, half that. This is with lead acid batteries.

Compressed air cars have even greater hurdles, the large one being their low fuel efficiency compared to a battery electric car.
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A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby Dan998 » Mon 22 May 2006, 11:39:05

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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby Caoimhan » Mon 22 May 2006, 12:02:34

Old news. Not a bad idea, except that the range is so limited. You're better off with batteries running an electric motor...

What is the cost of the electricity to run the air pump to pressurize the tanks?
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Mon 22 May 2006, 12:59:48

I've been following this closely for about four years now. IT seems to have stalled for about the last year and a half they haven't sent out anything new, no new developments. and they have even stopped showing the car to interested groups. Apparently the amount of power you get still leaves a lot to be desired.
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby Dan998 » Tue 23 May 2006, 01:43:59

I just spoke to someone familiar with this air car.
Here's what he told me.

I've studied this one quite a bit and think that there is actually quite a lot of potential with this - not necessarily with the MDI design (which I have not looked at in detail) but with the concept of air powered engines in general. There are quite a few ways that air engines can operate and the jury is still out on which one makes the most sense. Here is another one for example - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1636030/posts
(this one was discussed as operating on biodiesel but can operate on air too. As pointed out in other posts, one still has to generate the compressed air and that isn't necessarily cheap since it almost always means electricity and high pressure compressors are not all the efficient - the bit of analysis that I've done shows that it can still be quite economical though and particularly so if there is a use for the heat that is generated during the compression process (this improves the overall efficiency enormously).

One big advantage (and the reason why the electrical companies should rejoice with this is that it becomes a very viable way to level load electrical stations. The big problem now is that there is a peak in the morning when people get out of bed and fire factories up for the day and another peak later in the afternoon when people come home from work. Then the power demand drops off gradually and the electrical generators go into idle mode until the next morning when the cycle starts over again. (Thank goodness for coal powered plants as they have no problem adapting to this cycle as opposed to the nukes which really only operate at a single capacity.) What air powered cars do is help to level load i.e. each home owner could have a storage tank in their garage and a compressor that starts in the evening and gradually fills over the course of the evening in order to replenish the supply for the next day (or this of course could happen at as commercial fill station.) If other forms of compressing air become viable, the possibilities become even more interesting.

As for the cars themselves, there are some big advantages - absolutely zero pollution and very low maintenance being the main ones. Believe it or not, you can get a lot more torque out of a much smaller package so there is a substantial weight reduction. As has been pointed out, the generating stations still produce pollution but it is a lot easier to deal with it there than at a car exhaust pipe. The drawback is the limited driving range but recently they have been developing tanks in the 4,000 to 10,000 psi range and with this level of capacity, it won't be long before it will be very feasible to have air-powered cars on the road with a range of 50 to 100 miles. This still may not seem like much but it does satisfy the needs of most people for going back and forth to work or shopping. The issue of marketing around this device is an unknown of course - as is the technical viability of people having their own 'fill station' in their own garage (if that is what they choose to do as opposed to going to a commercial outlet).
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby dub_scratch » Tue 23 May 2006, 02:49:38

We are no where near the end of seeing oil alternatives to power cars. This trend of endless empty promises will continue until someone invents a car that runs on mule power.....That technology will be the one that finally works.
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby Lighthouse » Tue 23 May 2006, 09:12:39

I looked at the website and the technology looks promising.

But, and this is a big but for me, I can't imagine to feel very comfortable sitting in a car above some 300psi air tanks. Even I would survive a crash the shrapnel of a ruptured high pressure air tank would finish me for sure.
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby Caoimhan » Tue 23 May 2006, 09:40:20

pstarr wrote:yeah sure. Some high-tech miracle that no0ne ever thought of before will save our sorry ass. A car that runs on air. A car that runs on water last week. Next week a car that runs on chiropractic crunches??.

if I had a dollar for every car that ran on everything other than petroleum the I could start a gas station that pumps lollypops :)


Pstarr, your ignorance is showing.

This is pretty LOW tech. It's merely using pressurized air as a sort of "rubberband" to power the vehicle. The prinicple is sound. The highest "tech" is in the materials for the pressure tanks to store such high pressures.

These are essentially Zero Emission Vehicles (though the energy to pressurize the tanks produces pollution somewhere).

Range is the biggest issue.

Safety would also be a concern of mine. They're talking about a LOT of pressure in those tanks.

Frankly, I think the idea is pretty good, especially for local taxi services.
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby EndOfSewers » Tue 23 May 2006, 11:00:45

So if electricity is used to compress the air, isn't this really just a less efficient electric car?
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby Caoimhan » Tue 23 May 2006, 15:05:33

If you use coal powered electricity to run a train, isn't it just a coal powered train?
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Re: A car that runs on Air.

Unread postby EndOfSewers » Tue 23 May 2006, 22:09:43

Pretty much. I'm sure it's more efficient to concentrate all the coal burning in one spot in a dedicated facility.

Taking the electrical energy and transforming it by compressing air, which is not even remotely efficient, doesn't appear to offer any advantages except allowing the empty bragging right of "zero emission vehicle".
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