[frankthetank]

Heres another article...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6138972

and a pic...

[Bytesmiths]

The article i posted **claims** that on a tank you can go 50 miles @ 70mph...and a recharge would cost 2.50 in France...

Well, at 10 cents a kwh, that would be 25 kwh-worth of electrical energy, which is about 33 horsepower for one hour at <b>100% efficiency.</b> In reality, I would be amazed if it got as much as 30% efficiency. It will have to be <b>really</b> streamlined to reach 70 mph on 10 horsepower!

From looking at the digrams on their website, I think this is a niche vehicle for commuting only. It's a one-person affair -- more like a four-wheel motorcycle than what Americans, at least, are used to calling a "car."

Also, 300 bar (nearly 4,500 psi) is pretty scary. You don't want to get in a wreck with one of these if that tank blows!

[frankthetank]

Yeah...its more of a golf cart then anything. Better wear mittens and scarfs in the winter...

I'll stick with a bicycle...and my running shoes!


a horse!?

[rerere]

When you have an Air Car that can be refueled in 3 minutes, I think the argument that compressed air is inefficient is terribly wrong.

Given you have rejected the idea of http://www.ruf.dk out of hand, even though the RUF system can solve the power distribution problem of a low oil - higher electricity world that your air car solution would need, why have you not answered the question about just swapping out the batteries in an electric car at a electric battery station?

Well? What is wrong with the battery swap idea? (even though the battery swap still has the lack of power grid to support such an action)

[TrueKaiser]

maybe because they are expensive to make, especaily the rechargeables. and they loose some capacity every charge. for example my laptop battery is rated for 300 recharges.

[dontworryaboutpeakoil]

When you have an Air Car that can be refueled in 3 minutes, I think the argument that compressed air is inefficient is terribly wrong.

Given you have rejected the idea of http://www.ruf.dk out of hand, even though the RUF system can solve the power distribution problem of a low oil - higher electricity world that your air car solution would need, why have you not answered the question about just swapping out the batteries in an electric car at a electric battery station?

Well? What is wrong with the battery swap idea? (even though the battery swap still has the lack of power grid to support such an action)

The idea of swapping batteries is just impractical. Can you imagine an 80 year old grandma getting out of her car to replace a heavy battery? I don't see it.

And electric vehicles don't have the range required. And as others have stated, batteries break down, and potentially are dangerous.

I like the idea of driving up to an Air Station, and refueling the Air Tank through a nozzle. Very simple. 3 minutes to refuel, and you drive off.

[rerere]

Well? What is wrong with the battery swap idea? (even though the battery swap still has the lack of power grid to support such an action)

The idea of swapping batteries is just impractical. Can you imagine an 80 year old grandma getting out of her car to replace a heavy battery? I don't see it.

Because you have an adjenda and are unwilling to listen to alternative POVs.

The car drives up over an automated system. The 1000+ lbs of batteries are disconnected from the bottom of the car, the battery pack is moved out of the way and a recharged pack is put into place. The drivers credit card is charged for the service and the charge level. Of course, this swapping idea isn't needed with a RUF model, but you have rejected the RUF idea.

And electric vehicles don't have the range required.

What is this 'required' range? You have never stated what the 'required range' is.

And as others have stated, batteries break down, and potentially are dangerous.

Lets see - Gas tanks break down over time and gasoline is dangerous.
A tank full of compressed air is dangerous. And an air tank can 'break down' - rust through.

I like the idea of driving up to an Air Station, and refueling the Air Tank through a nozzle. Very simple. 3 minutes to refuel, and you drive off.

Then you are not here to hear why "the air car" is a poor idea, but how the Air Car is a great plan, and all humanity should have 3 right now!

[Bytesmiths]

And electric vehicles don't have the range required.

What is this 'required' range? You have never stated what the 'required range' is.

Without otherwise passing judgement on the "air car," I'd like to point out that available electric vehicles have <b>at least</b> the 50 mile published range of the air car. In fact, I'd view limited range as a negative in the air car column, <b>not</b> in the electric car column.

As I see it, the primary advantage of the air car is cheap manufacturing. It fails dismally on efficiency. Isn't chasing the cheap approach what got us here?

But really, folks -- either the air car or the electric car are just matters of moving polution away from cities, at a considerable cost in energy. When you factor in conversion losses, neither of these approaches is as efficient as even a 1980's era diesel. Either of these approaches will result in burning <b>more</b> fossil fuel, not less!

[dontworryaboutpeakoil]

And electric vehicles don't have the range required.

What is this 'required' range? You have never stated what the 'required range' is.

Without otherwise passing judgement on the "air car," I'd like to point out that available electric vehicles have <b>at least</b> the 50 mile published range of the air car. In fact, I'd view limited range as a negative in the air car column, <b>not</b> in the electric car column.

As I see it, the primary advantage of the air car is cheap manufacturing. It fails dismally on efficiency. Isn't chasing the cheap approach what got us here?

But really, folks -- either the air car or the electric car are just matters of moving polution away from cities, at a considerable cost in energy. When you factor in conversion losses, neither of these approaches is as efficient as even a 1980's era diesel. Either of these approaches will result in burning <b>more</b> fossil fuel, not less!

Explain how an air car that can travel 300KM on one tank of air, and can be refueled in THREE MINUTES is inefficient??

How much energy is required to create electricity to pump the air for 3 minutes??


The Air car can travel 300KM on one tank. If they put two tanks, that range is doubled to 600KM.

[dontworryaboutpeakoil]

Well? What is wrong with the battery swap idea? (even though the battery swap still has the lack of power grid to support such an action)

The idea of swapping batteries is just impractical. Can you imagine an 80 year old grandma getting out of her car to replace a heavy battery? I don't see it.

Because you have an adjenda and are unwilling to listen to alternative POVs.

I don't have an agenda. You are the one who is repeating RUF. For some reason, you don't seem to like the idea of personal freedom that the car represents. I don't want to give up the personal transportation and be stuck in a train. I don't realy care what technology replaces the Fossil fuel car, but as long as the car is still a car, I'm happy.

The car drives up over an automated system. The 1000+ lbs of batteries are disconnected from the bottom of the car, the battery pack is moved out of the way and a recharged pack is put into place. The drivers credit card is charged for the service and the charge level. Of course, this swapping idea isn't needed with a RUF model, but you have rejected the RUF idea.

Yeah but how far will the car go on batteries? They have electric cars today that run on batteries and it barely goes 50 miles. That isn't going to work in America.

The Air Car can go 300KM on one tank. Double the tank and you double the range to 600KM.

What is this 'required' range? You have never stated what the 'required range' is.

The car of the future should go at least 200 miles. or comparable to today's cars.

Then you are not here to hear why "the air car" is a poor idea, but how the Air Car is a great plan, and all humanity should have 3 right now!

I am here to hear arguments about the Air Car. You've only argued the RUF idea is better. I've yet to really hear good arguments on why the Air car isn't the ideal replacement.


I thought the Fuel Cell cars would be ideal, but people have presented good arguments against it such as the price of platinum, etc.

I want to hear arguments on why the Air Car won't work.

Mexico is buying them as taxis.
So is south Africa.

This proves that the Air Car is no gimmick but a reality. IF it can go 300KM on one tank, I believe we have the answer. Since it has an onboard battery, we'll still have heat, ac, radio. And if they can solve the saftey of the compressed air, then it looks like a winner to me.

[Bytesmiths]

... either the air car or the electric car are just matters of moving polution away from cities, at a considerable cost in energy. When you factor in conversion losses, neither of these approaches is as efficient as even a 1980's era diesel. Either of these approaches will result in burning <b>more</b> fossil fuel, not less!

Explain how an air car that can travel 300KM on one tank of air, and can be refueled in THREE MINUTES is inefficient??

First off, have you ever taken a basic physics class? Efficiency has <b>nothing</b> to do with either range nor refuling time.

Efficiency is the ratio of the output to the input of a system. If you put in 10 kilowatt-hours of electricity and get out 3 kilowatt-hours of mechanical energy, the system is 30% efficient.

How much energy is required to create electricity to pump the air for 3 minutes??

Not enought data. You are missing the pressure and rate of flow if you want to determine energy content -- <b>then</b> "3 minutes" becomes meaningful with respect to energy content.

The Air car can travel 300KM on one tank. If they put two tanks, that range is doubled to 600KM.

Did you look at http://www.theaircar.com/Mines_reports.html? The French Department of Energy basically said that at normal drivng speed, the range was more like a third to a half of that, for two tanks -- about the same as electric vehicles.

Mind you, I'm not pre-judging the air car. I think we need as many "out of the box" ideas as possible, but there's a big difference between having an open mind and letting the wind blow through your ears!

I remain skeptical, until someone can adequately explain the physics of it all.

[Bytesmiths]

Mexico is buying them as taxis.
So is south Africa.

This proves that the Air Car is no gimmick but a reality.

All it proves is that you can sell the government anything!

To be fair, the air car might be a reasonable way to export pollution from inner cities, but I'm certain it is not the answer to Peak Oil.

Since it has an onboard battery, we'll still have heat...

Not with any reasonably-sized battery!

A car battery holds about a kilowatt-hour of energy. For reasonable lifetime, you don't want to discharge them to less than half of capacity. So you get the equivalent of a hair-dryer running for half an hour. I hope you live in a warm climate!

[DvidBrent]

well, to be honest I don't care what alternatives there are.
The fact of the matter is there must be a real (as in produced by a factory now) alternative.
If I see an electric car on offer that is practicle enough then that will be my next car.
If I see an air car, ditto.

At the moment I would say the best bet for general purposes would be a super high mileage diesel, like the VW LUPO, or even better, so I have heard, the Seat Arosa (stella or siggno) TDI. They do around 70 to 80 mpg so I have read. And this car can convert to biodiesel. (they sell that in gas stations in Germany, but I haven't seen one in Britain. Maybe it's because I haven't looked.

[DvidBrent]

What I do find a shame though, is that American business has failed to even begin switching over to another cheaper source with extreme fuel efficient cars; in this example it would be diesel.
I read somewhere that 40% of cars in Germany are diesel. 1% for the U.S.

It's often fine to maximise your profits and make as much money as you can (the American raison d'etre). But this might backfire if they can't reorganize their alternative energy structure in time and the whole thing collapses. Then American business has been greedy and they have no-one else to blame when they go to the wall (with everyone else).

Alternatively, you could invade a still oil-rich nation like Iraq and, if you can get away with it, Iran as well. That would keep the money flowing in for a good deal longer if you could pull it off. Then you don't have to face the "decrease in revenues" music for a while yet.
Hey yeah, let's do that.

Any idea how we can sell that to the public? Let's see now.....

[Bytesmiths]

Alternatively, you could invade a still oil-rich nation like Iraq... Any idea how we can sell that to the public?

GAY MARRIAGE! THAT'S THE TICKET!

There was a poingant cartoon on the cover of Funny Times. It showed Bush naked in bed with a fat bald guy, labeled "Big Oil." Bush was reading a newspaper with the headlines "Gays to Marry," and he was saying "This troubles me..."

In another cartoon, Bush is dancing in glee, holding a similarly titled newspaper, saying "Praise the Lord, saved at last!"

(Although neither of these situations could have happened, as Bush himself said he does not read newspapers.)

On the plus side, I do not expect the current US government to do anything drastic to reduce the civil rights of gays, because they need the constant threat of that to win elections. Once gay marriage is outlawed, how will the Republicans get the faithful to the polls?

It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion.

The more I learn about history, the more familiar it seems...

[frankthetank]

Gay marriage and air cars?? huh? ok....

I agree with the above poster and his thoughts on diesel. Today I read an article in Americas magazine about how Brazil is wanting to have regular diesel have some biodiesel mixed in to cut imports. Very good article and interesting read. They want to use a variety of plants to produce the oil (not just soybeans).

Before SHTF...Brazil might be the place to be!

I just couldn't imagine an Air car pulling my boat ...come on, how much torque does this thing put out?

[Graeme]

Welcome to the future!
After twelve years of reserch and development, Guy Negre has developed an engine that could become one of the biggest technological advances of this century. Its application to CAT vehicles gives them significant economical and environmental advantages. With the incorporation of bi-energy (compressed air + fuel) the CAT Vehicles have increased their driving range to close to 2000 km with zero pollution in cities and considerably reduced pollution outside urban areas.
As well, the application of the MDI engine in other areas, outside the automotive sector, opens a multitude of possibilities in nautical fields, co-generation, auxiliary engines, electric generators groups, etc. Compressed air is a new viable form of power that allows the accumulation and transport of energy. MDI is very close to initiating the production of a series of engines and vehicles. The company is financed by the sale of manufacturing licences and patents all over the world.

http://www.theaircar.com/

After more than thirty years with the combustion engines, the French engineer Guy Negre has developed a concept of a totally non-polluting engine for use in urban areas. The different versions of MDI engines provide the most comprehensive answer to the urban pollution problem: simple, economic and clean.

This invention, which uses high pressure (300 bar) compressed air to store the energy needed for running the engine, is protected world-wide by more than 20 patents owned by MDI.

In urban areas, the engine powers a five-seat vehicle with a range of approximately 200 km using 300 litters of compressed air (300 bar) stored in either carbon or glass fiber tanks.

A compressor driven by an electric motor connected to a standard electric outlet does the recharge of the compressed air tanks. A rapid recharge, using a high-pressure air pump, is also possible.

To demonstrate the viability of the concept, three prototype vehicles equipped
with air, mono-energy, and engines were developed.

A taxi called "TOP" (Taxi ZerO Pollution) and pickups truck, were built. In May
1998, the first road tests of these prototypes were done in Brignoles, France.

A great interest in the zero pollution concept has been expressed by the news
media. Since May 1998, the taxi "TOP" has been the subject of more than 40
television programs and several newspaper and magazine articles around the
world.

The potential market for the "clean engine" concept is immense: e.g., vehicles
such as taxis, buses, vans, delivery trucks, industrial warehouse tractors, golf
buggies, lake or canal boats and many other applications in which fixed engines
are primarily used in urban or restricted areas.

A version of MDI engine can, in addition to air, also function with the use of
traditional fuel; petrol, diesel, natural or town gas, at very low consumption
levels. The change of source of energy is handled electronically based
on the speed of the vehicle; e.g. below 60 km/h it runs on air and higher
speeds it runs on fuel.

To manage the development process successfully, MDI has contracted its product
research and development activities to CQFD Air Solution, a company based in
Brignoles, France. Here, under the direction of Guy Negre, some 30 engineers and
technicians have at their disposal the most modern equipment for engine
and vehicle development, testing and production, supported by the latest in
information technology.

As soon as the MDI engines and vehicles are commercially viable (within 1-3
years, depending on the version) they will have a market, with very limited
competition, if any, for an estimated period of 10-15 years.

The commercial strategy is currently concentrated on the urban markets, with
products including taxis, delivery vans and pickup trucks.

Based on a new concept of local vehicle production and sales, MDI promote
regional manufacturing license rights in the form of franchised turnkey factory
systems. Such a turnkey factory will have a normal production capacity of
2000-4000 vehicles per year and will employ some 130 people. A model factory is
being constructed in Brignoles, France.

It is estimated that the first zero pollution vehicles will be on the market in
year 2000.

Comments?

Graeme Scott

[rerere]

Welcome to the future!.....
http://www.theaircar.com/
....
Comments?

Use the search feature to see the past comments about weight, speed and distance.

[Graeme]

Thanks I found earlier links. Somebody thought that it may not even be built but the MDI site insists that it a reality. I posted this because I thought some people may have missed it. I would be interested to know if anyone has bought one or intends to.

Graeme

[Liamj]

Haven't either, sorry Graeme, but am interested, if only as a mobile energy storage. I think even the transport use will ultimately play second fiddle to that function. Aren't all other energy storages less postpeak friendly, due to high technology, materials or infrastructure requirements?