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The Pressurized Air Car?

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: compressed air car

Unread postby tsakach » Tue 08 Jul 2008, 14:26:09

Web references to this technology:

MDI Enterprises

Zero Pollution Motors

US Patent: Method for operating pollution-free engine expansion chamber and expansion chamber therefor

The ZPM compressed air vehicle is built with the high performance Compressed Air Engine (CAE) technology developed by Formula One race car engineer Guy Negre.

The technology has been tested, prototypes have been running. and the Air Car is now entering its final development stage.

ZPM will begin taking reservations in mid-2009 for US deliveries of our compressed air vehicle in 2010.

Range: 848 miles (8 gal tank)
Power source: Electronically injected compressed air

Fuel Characteristics:
Compressed Air: 3200 ft3 @ 4500 psi
Charger: On board 5.5 kwh 110/220 v compressor generating 812 ft3 /hr.

http://zeropollutionmotors.us/
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby JRP3 » Tue 08 Jul 2008, 16:16:45

Range: 848 miles (8 gal tank)

I seriously doubt that.
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby tsakach » Tue 08 Jul 2008, 16:29:15

JRP3 wrote:
Range: 848 miles (8 gal tank)

I seriously doubt that.


Yeah.

The link at the top of this thread is to a company MDI Enterprises had to formally disassociate themselves with:

MDI Enterprises wrote:Following serious commercial misconducts from Mr. Miguel Celades, MDI had to officially stop all relationships with him since 3rd February 2008.
Any reference by Mr Miguel CELADES and/or his companies « Motor de Aire Comprimido S.L. »and “Air Cars Factories SL” and/or his websites “motordeaire . com” and “www.theaircar.com” , whether directly or indirectly to construction or sales of compressed air engines and/or vehicles using this technology in relation with MDI (Motor Development International constitutes serious charges of unfair competition and fraud.

Mr Miguel CELADES, former MDI agent in Spain and Spanish-speaking countries, is attempting to use the goodwill and success of MDI in order to mislead potential investors for his own benefit.


Statement by MDI Enterprises

The oildrum did an interview with Louis Arnoux of IT-MDI:
The Air Car Part 2 - Q & A With Louis Arnoux of IT-MDI
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby lper100km » Tue 08 Jul 2008, 18:14:28

tsakach wrote:
Range: 848 miles (8 gal tank)
Power source: Electronically injected compressed air
Fuel Characteristics:
Compressed Air: 3200 ft3 @ 4500 psi
Charger: On board 5.5 kwh 110/220 v compressor generating 812 ft3 /hr.


There is something seriously wrong with those numbers.

8 US Galls is equivalent to 1 cu.ft. To travel the claimed 845 miles, it would be necessary to recharge the tank 3,200 times.

It says that the onboard charger can refill at a rate of 812 cu.ft per hour. Presumably it means to the pressure of 4 500psi. This would charge the tank in 4.5 secs. Without taking into account any of the inefficiencies, the straight power conversion requires that the charger is rated at 200kWh, yet the blurb claims it is only 5.5kWh. With inefficiencies brought in, the charging motor should have about an 800 – 1 000kWh rating, (nominal 750hp). So what gives?

A 5.5kWh charger might develop 5 cu.ft at 4 500 psi over an hour in practical terms, giving a recharge rate of around 12 mins.

Presumably the vehicle has to stop to recharge, since the onboard charger is indicated as being electrically powered (110 v no less). 3 200 stops of 12 mins each to go 845 miles? That's 640 hours minimum round the clock! There’s something sadly amiss with this whole thing. It’s completely nonsensical.
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby tsakach » Tue 08 Jul 2008, 19:01:38

lper100km wrote:There is something seriously wrong with those numbers.

8 US Galls is equivalent to 1 cu.ft. To travel the claimed 845 miles, it would be necessary to recharge the tank 3,200 times.

It says that the onboard charger can refill at a rate of 812 cu.ft per hour. Presumably it means to the pressure of 4 500psi. This would charge the tank in 4.5 secs. Without taking into account any of the inefficiencies, the straight power conversion requires that the charger is rated at 200kWh, yet the blurb claims it is only 5.5kWh. With inefficiencies brought in, the charging motor should have about an 800 – 1 000kWh rating, (nominal 750hp). So what gives?

A 5.5kWh charger might develop 5 cu.ft at 4 500 psi over an hour in practical terms, giving a recharge rate of around 12 mins.

Presumably the vehicle has to stop to recharge, since the onboard charger is indicated as being electrically powered (110 v no less). 3 200 stops of 12 mins each to go 845 miles? That's 640 hours minimum round the clock! There’s something sadly amiss with this whole thing. It’s completely nonsensical.


I agree that the claims for obtaining this amount of energy from the described compressed air storage system is a bunch of baloney. However, the patent application describes "external combustion" as part of the process, where compressed air is heated prior to entry into the engine.

Regardless of the claims made for compressed air as an energy storage technology, this engine is interesting in itself as an alternative type of external combustion engine.

MDI's first application for their engine is a stationary electric generator driven by some external heat source. It seems possible that the engine could be driven with steam as well. Maybe it could become part of a small-scale concentrating solar system in the range of 5-10 kilowatts.

For Electricity Production Generator (EPG) the engine is operated by continuous external combustion (in a similar manner to the dual-energy CATs engines) using the least expensive fossil or bio-fuel, LPG or gas. The unit continuously compresses the air that runs the engine.


MDI Generator Units
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby lper100km » Tue 08 Jul 2008, 19:35:38

tsakach: I did check the web site and find it high on ideals but not specifically informative. They do seem to have ideas about hybrid cycle and multi fuel engines but after some 15 years of operation, the company should have a better range of products than patents and concepts. Maybe I’m just being cynical – a state of mind I can very easily slip into these days – but I have seen several ‘wonder’ engine schemes looking for believing investors over the years. At least MDI does not appear to be touting for investor money. Regardless of whoever is pushing the idea, an auto being propelled from a compressed air cylinder is a ludicrous concept.
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Re: compressed air car

Unread postby runcar » Mon 28 Jul 2008, 20:36:24

According to this video, the MDI air car in the video has a range of 93 miles, and travels at 40 mph or below on air alone and at any higher speeds, it uses a fossil fuel burning engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgwfpIOOb-c

The car is also loud compared to a BEV or FCV, so it may have a few fans but I think either of the two technologies I’ve just mentioned would be better alternatives.
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Air car

Unread postby vampyregirl » Sat 27 Feb 2010, 14:05:30

Luxembourg based MDI invented the first car to run on compressed air and it is now being produced in India as the CityCat by Tata Motors. Ney York based Zero Pollution Motors is now licensed to produce it in North America and they are aiming for a loftier goal, an air hybrid with a 1k mile range. The CityCat has a range of 65 miles between compressed air fillups.
The only bad thing i see with this awesome new technology is will the government tax the air that we breathe now because it has become a commodity?
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Re: Air car

Unread postby TheDude » Sat 27 Feb 2010, 14:36:32

site:peakoil.com forum Air car - Google Search

Regular search ist kaput. Peruse archives before posting or mods will PM you some garlic. Image
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Re: Air car

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sat 27 Feb 2010, 16:46:39

What type of energy will be required to compress that air?
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Re: Air car

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 27 Feb 2010, 19:19:36

Ferretlover wrote:What type of energy will be required to compress that air?


Well most modern compressors are electric but in the period a hundred years or so ago mechanical compressors worked on steam or wind or water driven cam shafts. Heck the pneumatic air compressor we use for the jackhammer at work runs on diesel fuel with a motor that could burn a lot of different grades of oil in a pinch.
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Re: Air car

Unread postby JRP3 » Sat 27 Feb 2010, 21:31:15

Air car is a joke, it doesn't actually run on air, it runs on whatever fuel is used to compress that air, usually by combustion to generate electricity. It's an inefficient energy conversion process. Been discussed before:
http://peakoil.com/energy-technology/compressed-air-car-t28534.html
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Re: Air car

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sat 27 Feb 2010, 23:09:11

JRP3 wrote:Air car is a joke, it doesn't actually run on air, it runs on whatever fuel is used to compress that air,

I guess I do have to note when I am being just a little bit sarcastic! :lol:
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Re: Air car

Unread postby JRP3 » Sat 27 Feb 2010, 23:20:06

Ferretlover wrote:
JRP3 wrote:Air car is a joke, it doesn't actually run on air, it runs on whatever fuel is used to compress that air,

I guess I do have to note when I am being just a little bit sarcastic! :lol:

Actually I was replying to the original poster who was talking about air as a commodity. Maybe that was sarcasm as well [smilie=dontknow.gif]
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Re: Air car

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 28 Feb 2010, 02:24:54

Ferretlover wrote:
JRP3 wrote:Air car is a joke, it doesn't actually run on air, it runs on whatever fuel is used to compress that air,

I guess I do have to note when I am being just a little bit sarcastic! :lol:



I got it immediately! :-D This is almost as energy inefficient as hydrogen powered cars.... which, by the way, we hear little of anymore.
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Re: Air car

Unread postby JRP3 » Sun 28 Feb 2010, 08:18:54

They are still out there, lurking, waiting, looking for scraps of funding to continue their hydrogen fairy tale.
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Re: Air car

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sun 28 Feb 2010, 12:57:48

Ask any scuba shop owner about tank explosions. That's why they fill tanks in a trough of water - explosions are very common
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Re: Air car

Unread postby vampyregirl » Wed 03 Mar 2010, 13:07:26

I'm not some naive fool. I know that the electric or gas powered pump used to compress the air is not zero emission even if the car is. I just find the air car an interesting concept.
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Re: Air car

Unread postby JRP3 » Wed 03 Mar 2010, 13:09:25

Honestly, what's interesting about a really inefficient way to use energy for transportation? That's all it is.
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Re: Air car

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 03 Mar 2010, 13:43:24

Methane-powered transportation:

eat some pinto beans and then hop on a skateboard...
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