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The Pressurized Air Car?

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: IS THIS THE END OF PEAK OIL?

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 11:30:43

SolarDave wrote:1. Two 6 Volt 220 AH golf cart batteries contain roughly 2.5 KWH if you drain them down agressively.


That is a very good point. Kinda puts it in perspective doesn't it?
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 11:50:42

I just saw this:http://www.theaircar.com/Mines_reports.html

They had the engineering audited by a firm in Paris who confirm that it has a range of 70 miles at 31 mph or 416 miles at 12 mph! They don't even mention speeds above 31mph. That's stable speed, BTW. No slowing down, speeding up, hills, etc. I'm pretty sure you could get further faster with a horse and buggy.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby jbeckton » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 11:58:10

kolm wrote:(a) energies are not all alike,
(b) net energy calculations are not always the only thing that matters,
(c) people won't act 'rational' (maximize energy flow over lifespan of humanity), but what economists call 'rational' (maximize short-time earnings).


Is a wind generated watt different than a coal generated watt as far as the end user is concerned? These statements are just semantics.

kolm wrote:The problem is that they are not very reliable. (Ask the danes about it.) People don't want unreliable power supply, so power suppliers need backups, either by call options on power or by back-up plants.

Coal and nuclear provide base load and will for the forseeable future. Wind and solar will supplement.

kolm wrote:First of all, Parson type steam turbine couples work at about 40%, not 33%, and they are used in the power industry if it pays off economically. In NPP, you usually don't want many things that can jam, because down-time and maintenance costs you dearly, hence you usually accept lower efficiency than theoretically achievable. Second, even 33% is not too far from carnot efficiency, hence I do not understand what you mean by 'not efficient at all'.


Forget Parson. Whats the efficiency of the average steam turbine generator in the US? About 33%. Not too far off from carnot? Lets see-

TH=1005 degF =813.71K
TL= 95 degF =308.15K

nth=1-TL/TH
=1-.38

Carnot = 62%

Yeah, good call 33% is close to 62%

But who cares about these useless thermodynamic thingies that add nothing to the conversation besides................. proving you are full of crap.

Where does nuclear energy suck air out of the atmosphere?

kolm wrote:At its ventilation openings. Cool air is used to cool cooling water.


Sure, but where does the steam burn oxygen which was the point I was making? Exactly, thats just taken out of context.

It uses a nuclear reaction to boil water, the rest is no different from a coal plant.

kolm wrote:Hell yes it is. If you have a leakage in the cooling water containment of the coal plant, you can make a guesstimate how long you can run this thing and go on; in the NPP, you have to shut down immediately and file an incident report.


And that happens all the time right? I was refering to the generation process. Again useless semantics taken out of context that add nothing to the converstaion.

Nevermind the air car, my point is, and always has been, that if were could develop an infastructure that was dependent on electricity alone, we have a chance to achieve sustainability. Sure there are a lot more pieces to the puzzle.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby clueless » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:10:20

Sure, but where does the steam burn oxygen which was the point I was making? Exactly, thats just taken out of context.


You are the one taking things out of context - I ASKED if Nuclear used oxygen in the combustive process, you claimed I said that it did.

Jbeckton - What are you threatened by ? I am clearly not an engineer and do not claim to be one. I certainly do not have all the head knowledge you have, but I am more aware than the average person. WHy do you have such a chip on your shoulder ?
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:12:59

This compressed air car is nothing more than a cheap arse fix to our energy problems. Got vitimans.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby yesplease » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:19:07

smallpoxgirl wrote:I just saw this:http://www.theaircar.com/Mines_reports.html

They had the engineering audited by a firm in Paris who confirm that it has a range of 70 miles at 31 mph or 416 miles at 12 mph! They don't even mention speeds above 31mph. That's stable speed, BTW. No slowing down, speeding up, hills, etc. I'm pretty sure you could get further faster with a horse and buggy.


Only if you want to kill your horse! ~35 hours of straight work... Poor thing. ;) But this is definitely considered to be an Urban vehicle. It'd be great for West or East coast rush hour traffic, nearly useless for open highway, probably something like 10-20 miles of range. This could probably be doubled with aerodynamic improvements (Wow, 40 miles! ;)), but since it's being marketed as a practical urban vehicle, they aren't worth looking into in that context.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby jbeckton » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:27:01

clueless wrote:Please explain what you are talking about ? I am saying going from Hydrocarbon (there is nothing "fossil" about oil and gas) energy to wind is the same as going from domestic gas to LNG, far more impractical and cost intensive


Are you actually claiming that natural gas and oil are not fossil fuels?


clueless wrote:Oil might get very cheap in a few years when the economy crashes and the masses cannot afford it.


Oil will get cheap when people can't afford it because its in short supply and the production methods get more expensive ? Wow, we are all dumber having read that. You shoud put a disclaimer above your posts. There will always be buyers for oil.

I'm guessing any general knowlwdge of economics isn't required to hire engineers to research and develop fuel cells. Yeah your company is making good moves; starting with you.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby jbeckton » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:40:09

clueless wrote:
Sure, but where does the steam burn oxygen which was the point I was making? Exactly, thats just taken out of context.


You are the one taking things out of context - I ASKED if Nuclear used oxygen in the combustive process, you claimed I said that it did.

Jbeckton - What are you threatened by ? I am clearly not an engineer and do not claim to be one. I certainly do not have all the head knowledge you have, but I am more aware than the average person. WHy do you have such a chip on your shoulder ?


I guess its because I see a sharp irony on this board.

Most people here complain that warnings to our problems were ignored and written off as nonsense. I agree. However, those same people are just as quick to write off any sign of light off as well even when they don't understand the technology they are writing off.

Doomer porn for everyone.

A lot of people here talk about how people just won't listen to them when they talk about PO and they can't understand. Well, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself how you can be so certain of your fate while relying on internet boards, articles, and pridictions to make your assesment.

Don't get me wrong, there are people here that make good arguments for some things even though I might not agree with them, but there are many more that are just repeating what they have heard on this board and have no real unbiased knowlege of many of the things discussed.

Reminds me of the "Allegra's Cave" story.

How can you know that the shaddows are not real if you never look out of the cave.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby clueless » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:43:12

Are you actually claiming that natural gas and oil are not fossil fuels?


I am saying it is plant matter - That is what I am claiming. Fossils are burried skeletons (or whatever you want to call them).

Should I start giving footnotes ???

Oil will get cheap when people can't afford it because its in short supply and the production methods get more expensive ? Wow, we are all dumber having read that. You shoud put a disclaimer above your posts. There will always be buyers for oil.


To what level will there be buyers for oil ? Our society, no matter how you slice it is built on $1 gas and $100 electricity bills - The price trend is in an upward swing and the average American is going deeper into debt to pay his fuel bills due to a falling dollar and increasing global demand (both directly and indirectly becasue all products and services are produced and made from energy), which is not sustaninable in any fashion.

Our per captia fuel consumption is the highest in the world - Want a microcosm of this ?? Looke at the airlines - Massive overcapacity built up due to $20 oil - WHich is a snapshot of the entire US way of life, massive unsustainable overcapacity built on abundant resources. That is changing - ANd when the global creditors quit loaning money the the US it will deflate like a balloon (or the air car). This imported energy paradigm we are in will be the great global equalizer fo rthe United States.

I'm guessing any general knowlwdge of economics isn't required to hire engineers to research and develop fuel cells. Yeah your company is making good moves; starting with you
.

Do you really want to talk economics ? You may be out of your leauge...
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby clueless » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:52:07

How can you know that the shaddows are not real if you never look out of the cave.


Cave ??? I think we have lived in a cave for the last 30 years. Doomer ? It depends on your perspective, our way of life is bay far the exception rather than the rule.

Are you of the opinion the United States is a "Happy" society ? What are the stats 40-50% of US residents are on some form of mind altering medication. Depression is the highest here that anywhere in the world ? I personally think the American way of life is depressing and keeps people in a perpetual state of want and coveteousness...I think learning to live with less is a good thing. Self sacrifice has always been a good thing for this country, and obsession with self indulgence has always been the precrusor to any societal collapse.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby jbeckton » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 12:56:16

clueless wrote:
Are you actually claiming that natural gas and oil are not fossil fuels?


I am saying it is plant matter - That is what I am claiming. Fossils are burried skeletons (or whatever you want to call them).

Should I start giving footnotes ???


No, but doing your homework would be nice

Fossil fuel-Fuel derived from ancient organic remains; eg, peat, coal, crude oil, and natural gas.


clueless wrote:To what level will there be buyers for oil ? Our society, no matter how you slice it is built on $1 gas and $100 electricity bills - The price trend is in an upward swing and the average American is going deeper into debt to pay his fuel bills due to a falling dollar and increasing global demand (both directly and indirectly becasue all products and services are produced and made from energy), which is not sustaninable in any fashion.


So you think that if gas was 1$ and electricity bills wer $100 people would not be in debt? They are in debt because they can't budget their expenses, not because things are too expensive because fuel prices are high.

They would be just as much in debt, they would just get more stuff along the way.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby clueless » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 13:07:13

organic remains


My point exactly.


So you think that if gas was 1$ and electricity bills wer $100 people would not be in debt? They are in debt because they can't budget their expenses, not because things are too expensive because fuel prices are high.

They would be just as much in debt, they would just get more stuff along the way.


That is completely incorrect - The saving rate has been falling since the 1960's. How much is your mortgage ? Compare that with the average mortgage holder thirty years ago ? That simply has nothing to do with "budgeting expenses", and everything to do with the United States is in an unsustainable way of life and is borrowing (or printing money) to keep itself afloat. The untied states has NOTHING to back up the trilions of dollars it has flooded the global ecomomy with. If you were China and held a trillion dollars in it's central banks would you see this as a sustainable pattern ? The US imports nearly all it's vital commodities, that will change as we continue to enrich third world countries, like it or not that is going to happen.

What you see on TV Jbeckton is not reality.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby SolarDave » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 13:10:30

yesplease wrote:
smallpoxgirl wrote:I just saw this:http://www.theaircar.com/Mines_reports.html

They had the engineering audited by a firm in Paris who confirm that it has a range of 70 miles at 31 mph or 416 miles at 12 mph! They don't even mention speeds above 31mph. That's stable speed, BTW. No slowing down, speeding up, hills, etc. I'm pretty sure you could get further faster with a horse and buggy.


Only if you want to kill your horse! ~35 hours of straight work... Poor thing. ;) But this is definitely considered to be an Urban vehicle. It'd be great for West or East coast rush hour traffic, nearly useless for open highway, probably something like 10-20 miles of range. This could probably be doubled with aerodynamic improvements (Wow, 40 miles! ;)), but since it's being marketed as a practical urban vehicle, they aren't worth looking into in that context.


Ok, it's time to look under the car and see if there are legs under there.

Suppose the car can go 416 miles at 12 MPH, running approcimately 35 hours on one "fill-up." Taking smallpoxgirl's 2.5 KWh figure as the amount of energy stored in this beast, that means it uses roughly 70 continuous Watts of power to travel at 12 MPH, - assuming 100% of the 2.5KWh is available to propel the vehicle. That 70 Watts has to overcome air piping and distribution losses, throttling losses, and engine, drivetrain and tire friction, all completely lost.

THEN there has to be enough power left over after those losses to overcome air friction and propel the vehicle at 12 MPH.

I would expect 0-12MPH times on the order of 1-2 hours at this power level :lol:

If their calculations were true, replacing the air motor and tanks with a set of pedals would provide similar range and performance - and address all of the "where will the power come from" questions in this thread :)
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby clueless » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 13:14:13

If their calculations were true, replacing the air motor and tanks with a set of pedals would provide similar range and performance - and address all of the "where will the power come from" questions in this thread


It may also make for a happier healthier society also.

If their calculations were true, replacing the air motor and tanks with a set of pedals would provide similar range and performance - and address all of the "where will the power come from" questions in this thread


My road bike only weighs 16 lbs - Doesn't that make my machine far more efficient ???
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby yesplease » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 13:30:37

SolarDave wrote:I would expect 0-12MPH times on the order of 1-2 hours at this power level :lol:


Surely you realize the possible difference between peak and average power? It's slow, but not that slow. ;)

SolarDave wrote:If their calculations were true, replacing the air motor and tanks with a set of pedals would provide similar range and performance - and address all of the "where will the power come from" questions in this thread :)


According to your calcs, this can go 12 miles on 70watts for an hour, or 70wh per 12 miles. So 6wh/mile. My hat's off if anyone could bike for 35 hours straight at 6wh/mile with peaks in the kw range. :razz: Besides, food has a ~10:1 caloric fossil fuel penalty, so until that changes, I doubt there'll be much difference between one or more people using these things and a single cyclist. Maybe an electrified velo could have a leg up, but I don't think we could pay most people to use 'em.

These obviously aren't practical for everyone, but the point imo is to have some sort of public use energy sink for off peak renewables, or even off peak electricity production in general. For fleet use, they may even be cheaper than the little electric golf carts, since battery replacement isn't required, an industrial sized compressor can be used (better eff), and electricity can be bought off peak for half the usual rates. Reducing energy consumption won't be about one big knockout solution, it'll be about a combination of regional mechanisms. :)


clueless wrote:My road bike only weighs 16 lbs - Doesn't that make my machine far more efficient ???


Only if you average a couple miles per hour. With the food:fossil fuel energy penalty, and a drag coefficient equivalent to a small aerodynamic car, the equivalent efficiency of a bike takes a huge hit if you look at the whole W-W chain. ;)
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby clueless » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 15:33:30

Nevermind the air car, my point is, and always has been, that if were could develop an infastructure that was dependent on electricity alone, we have a chance to achieve sustainability. Sure there are a lot more pieces to the puzzle.


What you are saying is that we just "Rebuild" what has taken 150 years to build and run it on electricity ?

A small town could do that, certainly not sprawl central like LA , Houston SF Bay Area, Atlanta etc. Germany has taxed fuel for the last twenty years and built mass transit etc. and will still most likely face tremendous problems.

My question about an electric society is always : Toss the useless made in China garbage and focus on essentials. How can we revert to an organic agricultural model ? It can never happen - especially at current rates of consumption. Our chosen path is to use our last twelve inches of topsoil to make ethanol, sound sustainable ??

I think not.

Were you cognizant during the Carter years ? I was 12 and remember vividly, Even if an electric society was possible, it would require tremendous sacrifice. Can you see the 20 something turing off the TV, Ipods adn video games to fact this reality ? I don't think so.

Have you read the Hirsch report ?
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Thu 22 Mar 2007, 19:40:36

yesplease wrote:According to your calcs, this can go 12 miles on 70watts for an hour, or 70wh per 12 miles. So 6wh/mile. My hat's off if anyone could bike for 35 hours straight at 6wh/mile with peaks in the kw range.


My hat's off to anyone that can drive for 35 straight hours at 12 miles an hour and not either go stark raving mad or get crushed by a semi.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby Heineken » Fri 23 Mar 2007, 00:13:23

With all the hot air on this board you could power one of these things a few miles.
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby SolarDave » Fri 23 Mar 2007, 01:39:23

yesplease wrote:
SolarDave wrote:If their calculations were true, replacing the air motor and tanks with a set of pedals would provide similar range and performance - and address all of the "where will the power come from" questions in this thread :)


According to your calcs, this can go 12 miles on 70watts for an hour, or 70wh per 12 miles. So 6wh/mile.


Where is your smiley, and how can you continue to take this vehicle seriously? Do you realize 6 Wh/mile implies THREE DOUBLE-A 2000 mAh NiMH cells, which hold a total of slightly over 6 Wh of energy, would supposedly propel this vehicle for a MILE?

WAKE UP!
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Re: Compressed air car article - Gizmag

Unread postby Aaron » Fri 23 Mar 2007, 07:44:15

[stream]http://www.peakoil.com/sample/scientst.wav[/stream]
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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