The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

[AAA]

You're going to need a few of these:

There are plenty of places in the Southwest that have amazing water sources. You just need to know where to look, have some patience, and do a little title searching because most places aren't put up for sale but many are willing to sell in tough times.

Last year we picked up 140 acres that bordered our 160. It was owned by a brother and sister that were the great grandchildren of the original homesteader similiar to my family. The difference is they had no plans to do anything with the property but kept it because it was passed down through the family. We noticed they had not run cattle in over 10 years, no longer held their forest grazing permits, and the trees were beginning to take over.

So we did a title search and located the owners, told them we owned the land next door, and made them an offer. Our offer was much lower than fair market value but they did not live in the area and did not know what real estate prices were at the time and it sounded like a lot of money to them. We did not use a real estate agent or company so they did not have to pay the commission and could pocket 100% of the money. So they sold us the property.

For more than 100 years the land had been in their family and never once had a for sale sign on it. But they sold it because they wanted money rather than the land.

[mos6507]

By the way, how do you think Vermont got those "granola demographics?" Certainly wasn't like that when I was a kid.

The hippies moved to places like Brattleboro.

[Revi]

Vermont is really nice. I think it's like moving to a part of town which hasn't been "gentrified". All those "granola democrats" were the minority in Vermont when I lived there.

Maine is a bit rougher.

There aren't many jobs here, either.

How will it fare? Who knows?

We have an active farmer's market, so that's a good sign.

Grist mill starting up. Movie theatre.

We might be okay.

[mos6507]

Seriously though, essays like this from well known peakers are why I see Vermont as having already been tagged a peaker sanctuary:

I will tell you why I chose Vermont as my destination; my understanding of the state based on my research suggests the following*: First, Vermont is sparsely populated with about 630,000 residents. It has abundant water and arable land with ample access to firewood which of course will be critical for woodstove and pellet stove heating as home heating oil, the predominant means of heating in the Northeast, becomes increasingly unaffordable. ...The state also has an abundance of small farms, a thriving organic dairy industry, and a strong emphasis on eating and buying local.....Also, an Amtrak line runs from Montreal to New York City, and trains can be boarded daily from Rutland to the Big Apple...Perhaps most enticing about Vermont is the remarkable environmental consciousness of the majority of its citizens and the sense of community and mutual support they demonstrate. In fact, I have never known a state, and I have lived in many, where cooperation is as valued as it is in Vermont. A great deal of focus is now being placed by Vermonters on renewable energy with widespread Peak Oil awareness and preparation.

If you feel motivated to relocate, be advised: the sooner the better. Time is running out.

And some Vermonters already look at the newcomers as the zombie horde. Sounds like a great group to be in, wanting to pull up the drawbridge, if I were already inside.

• Saddened by the ongoing loss of farm land and open space of Vermont?
• Dismayed that most of our environmental problems continue to get worse?
• Worried about the quality of life your children and grand children will have?
• Concerned that because of population growth the dependence on foreign oil will increase from 55% now to 78% by 2025?
• Convinced that we can not have infinite growth with finite resources?

[vtsnowedin]

By the way, how do you think Vermont got those "granola demographics?" Certainly wasn't like that when I was a kid.

The hippies moved to places like Brattleboro.

The trouble comes from the drones that flunk out of UVM (ten points if you know what UVM stands for) and can't go home because dad gave them this one last chance. They hang around and end up working for state government in some environmental or welfare office position. Once on the state teet they nevah leave.

[Revi]

Very funny, Vtsnowedin.

Vermont is still quite beautiful. We took our solar car over to the Solarfest, and I had forgotten how lush the forests are, and the way the roads wind through the mountains.

Nice place to be when it gets nasty.

[oldchuck]

For the very reasons Mos mentions I tend to avoid Vermont promotion except to encourage tourists. There ain't all that much good farmland (Indiana is much better), even poor land is expensive, taxes are high, jobs scarce, winters long and cold, etc.

However, what Mos points out is an old story here. For two or three generations now city people, flatlanders have been moving in and getting comfortable. This causes resentment among some old timer natives to this day but others would say there has been something of a meeting of the minds. The hippies have grown up and gotten more responsible. My experience with this dynamic over most of my life suggests to me that cooperative accommodations among such diverse populations is possible. Yes, I know somebody is going to say, "So how do you deal millions of starving people with guns showing up on your doorstep." Guess we'll just have to set up toll booths at the border and charge a hefty admission fee.

I never heard of that population group. They do sound like the high end of the granola group. I tend to be more on the woodchuck end of things. By contrast, we have the governor and some economists warning about too many young Vermonters leaving and never coming back. This will devastate the economy they say. That's another old story.

[AAA]

Vermont is a trap. Flee while you can!!!

The population is way out of control in it's area.

Vermont and it's surroundings hold 55,000,000+ people in an area roughly 130,000 sq miles.

New Mexico is 121,000 sq miles and has a population of 1.9 million people. 800,000 people live in the Top 5 largest cities/towns and that covers 378 sq miles. That means there is 120,977 sq miles for 1.1 million people.

New Mexico has 15 people per square mile.

Vermont & Surroundings has 423 people per square mile.

I think I will stick to the Southwest and make sure I acquire water rights.

[Ludi]

if I were fleeing Zombie Hordes I would definitely head west rather than east. Virtually no-one lives in the TransPecos. For good reason.

[AAA]

Here are Renewable Energy Maps comparing the two regions.







Obviously the NE has more rain and abundant fuel wood. But the Southwest has great solar and great wind opportunities.

[mos6507]

Vermont is a trap. Flee while you can!!!

The population is way out of control in it's area.

Vermont and it's surroundings hold 55,000,000+ people in an area roughly 130,000 sq miles.

Anywhere on earth "holds" 6.7 billion if you widen up the definition of "surroundings" enough.

Seriously, this is just getting into a population density pissing contest. Some of the towns in the NE Kingdom of Vermont have less than 500 people in them. Almost the entire western half of Maine is unpopulated other than loggers. Even Western MA has very few people in its towns.

[oldchuck]

Vermont is a trap. Flee while you can!!!

Yeah, Tripple A, you got it. Go west all ye fleeing people. Ain't nothin' here but trees and rocks and the occasional skunk.

No valuable resources at tall. No oil, no gold, no silver, no iron, no geothermal (pity that), too many NIMBYs for much wind development, solar sucks, terrible soil what little there is. For sure, go west. (first time I used one of those little things.)

P.S. Where'd you get those cool maps, trippleA?

[AAA]

P.S. Where'd you get those cool maps, trippleA?

EIA

[rattleshirt]

Hey, you don't want to come to Indiana...to many bible thumbers, we have had major floods the last few years, industrial ag has ruined huge sections of land...Chicago, Louisville, St. Louis, the entire state of Ohio are right there with their millions of potential zombies...y'all just move along now.

[patience]

Yeah! Unemployment numbers suck, tornadoes abound, and the girls are ugly, too!

[Nefarious]

O, I wish I was in Dixie!
Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand
To live and die in Dixie
Away, away,
Away down south in Dixie!

[oldchuck]

and the girls are ugly, too!

Too bad about that. Must be all the corn.

So where should we send fleeing folks? Nevada?

[vtsnowedin]

and the girls are ugly, too!

Too bad about that. Must be all the corn.

So where should we send fleeing folks? Nevada?

I'm sending anyone who asks to North Dakota. There is a beautiful girl behind every tree there.

[patience]

Do they have any trees in North Dakota?

I send people anywhere far away. But, seriously, the first requirement is the ability to earn a living, and that is hard anywhere now for a newcomer. I think most people are stuck wherever the are for the present. I'm convinced that it is too late to be retreating to the countryside, except in very special circumstances. Better figure on trying to "bloom where you are planted".

[PonyBoy78]

O, I wish I was in Dixie!
Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand
To live and die in Dixie
Away, away,
Away down south in Dixie!

While I wouldn't take my enthusiasm for the South that far, I will say that I'm pretty happy with my chosen location. For a place east of the Mississippi, its smallish population density, lack of accessibility to zombie hordes, supply of natural resources, farming potential, and climate are not too shabby. I only have to worry about hurricane damage 60 miles inland.