Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The personal is not political

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 08:21:36

Now if we were 500 million on the planet perhaps what Onlooker says could be true. But with almost 8 billion on the planet what we are doing here does not represent even in the remotest sense a solution.

I never meant to imply that what you Ibon or others around the world are doing are at this point making an actual difference in the trajectory. I used the word example. This is because it sets the tone for what remains of hope for the human race to live in a way commensurate with a renewable sustainable existence. I like some of you know that barring something unforeseen we are headed for an immense correction. But any actions or ideas (like Hawk mentioned) now while not conducive to preventing this correction nevertheless will be something to take forward beyond to a different world which will absolutely require the remaining humans to maintain a balance with and respect for their surroundings.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby Paulo1 » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 10:14:27

Years ago I was at some potluck or something and I sat next to a bit of a dickhead. With his thick German accent he loudly proclaimed, "In our house my wife looks after the big things and I follow her lead and limit myself to the little things. She looks after world peace, world hunger, limits...stuff like that. I just look after the little things like our bank accounts, our home, what we buy....and not much beyond."

:-D

But, he was right. Anyway, our spring rain has stopped and it looks to be a beautiful spring day. Everything else will have to wait until I'm done making pancakes for my grand-daughter and wife.

regards
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 15:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 11:30:43

"sometimes it is more important to spread the word"

Nicely put.

I am what you might call living in the inner city. The city, pushed by advocates, has increased public transportation and has put in so many bike paths that we now compete with Portland O. for the title of most bicycle-friendly city. The city has also now made a couple of hundred empty lots that they own officially available for community gardens, and they are going like hotcakes. Most of these are in some of the poorest areas of the city.

By the way, we're still waiting for a good spring rain. Actually, we seem to have blasted right bast spring into mid-summer--predicted high to day is ~80F!
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 19990
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 16:36:29

onlooker wrote:
Now if we were 500 million on the planet perhaps what Onlooker says could be true. But with almost 8 billion on the planet what we are doing here does not represent even in the remotest sense a solution.

I never meant to imply that what you Ibon or others around the world are doing are at this point making an actual difference in the trajectory. I used the word example. This is because it sets the tone for what remains of hope for the human race to live in a way commensurate with a renewable sustainable existence. I like some of you know that barring something unforeseen we are headed for an immense correction. But any actions or ideas (like Hawk mentioned) now while not conducive to preventing this correction nevertheless will be something to take forward beyond to a different world which will absolutely require the remaining humans to maintain a balance with and respect for their surroundings.


I will share something personal. My father took me hunting and fishing as a small child, every year we did a trip to remote areas and camped in his old green canvas military tent. A little older, around 12 years old, my older cousin, a mentor for me, woke me up at 3AM on misty rainy summer nights and took me up a 4WD road in state forest land in eastern Pennsylvania where a communication tower with bright lights attracted millions of moths. This was my first initiation into the rich biodiversity that is out there. My cousin became an entomologist. Years later I was into serious back country wilderness trips throughout north america and Canada.

Back in the 70's I was pretty arrogant towards most people who lived domesticated and tamed lives. I already then rejected the status quo. Suburbanites for me were people living diminished lives, their eyes dulled. Coming back from a 600 kilometer canoe trip in Northern Canada do you guys know what consensus reality looks in suburbia or a shopping mall when your soul and eyes and ears have been opened in the wilderness? From that point on I have always stood outside the mainstream.

I must have hitch hiked a dozen times across North America and Canada. I often left for wilderness trips hitch hiking on an inner state highway until I managed to get to an entrance point of The Appalachain Trail or a national park out west. I am deeply thankful for having spent nearly a decade on the open road before aged tamed me, I got married, two kids, got more professional, traveled a couple decades through latin america in business and in every spare moment while doing so I was visiting nature lodges and national parks. I was a fanatic and serious bird watcher. All of this in my past lead me to where I am today owning and managing this private reserve here in Panama.

The point of sharing this? I am not doing what I am doing as an example. Also not for political reasons. I am also not trying to represent a sustainable alternative. What I am doing today stems from the passions that were instilled in me immersed in nature as a child, enabled by mentors like my father and cousin, later professors in college and experienced wilderness travelers who taught me. This deep relationship with nature was cultivated during a life time. I never was politically engaged, never an environmental activist. In fact looking out at the world through years spent in wilderness if I would meet an urban member of The Sierra Club or Green Peace who spewed out all kinds of sustainable or political rhetoric but never really spent time in the fields or woods I would say to myself...."What a clueless asshole".

Now I am older. I see a young generation emerging with even more abstract relationships to the natural world. A global population more urbanized and suburbanized than ever. How many out there have gone through an initiation into nature and the wilderness that I was so fortunate to have as a child. I was privileged and still am.

I am a little less arrogant than I was in my 20's but I am just as distant to the status quo today as I was back then. A little more compassionate perhaps toward our species dilemma. But I still recognize a Kudzu Ape when I see one which is all of us living in the early 21st century. Which is what Pstarr is mostly saying in his opening post of this thread.

Nature and wilderness was and always has been my church. It has given me great insights and has made me quite misanthropic as well toward 21st century humans. I remain ever hopeful that in my lifetime The Overshoot Predator ramps up his arsenal. The sooner the better. On the surface this sentiment seems quite misanthropic but it is the road we will take by default to get to a place where my optimism rests, somewhere on the far side of the correction when we plateau at a third or a fifth or a tenth of our current population. Our global population will then be diminished but those who survive will no longer be.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 17:17:28

If I too may indulge in a little personal musings that elaborate more on this topic. I think as we look at this planet and the way humans are behaving on it, I am struck by the multitude of neurotic and psychotic behavior. In turn this strikes me as a product of both our dysfunctional relations with each other and our lack of serenity within ourselves. If you notice the icon/avatar I now use it depicts a human in a very tranquil setting in a serene pose. I use it because it reflects my attempts to find peace in this rambunctious unruly and to some degree out of control world. I am a lifetime city and suburban dweller. In fact, living in NY city epitomizes this chaotic milieu which many humans now inhabit. A world of relentless noise, forced interaction with others etc. My point with all this ramble is that I find Peace and Serenity now so alluring and desirable. I think Nature helps us capture this sense of peace. I think the complex and stressful world is something that many on this planet will not miss. This may be also a link between the here and now and that point beyond the other side of the bottleneck. A desire for a simpler and more peaceful world.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 18:10:04

pstarr wrote:Nothing you do on a personal level is of any value to the environment or to your fellow being. You have already been rendered isolated, a mere cog in the machine. An ant drone has no more individual effect on the hive than you do on the political machine or the upon the environmental disasters waiting to happen to us all.

This became obvious to me during the California drought. Calls for conservation are meaningless. Empty distractions. Impossible goals because the numbers did not jive. If the residential consumer only takes 8% of water (the rest goes to industry, agriculture, infrastructure, government) then personal action is pointless.

What good is a live (or dead) lawn or grey-water recycling if it cuts total water use by a mere fraction of 1%? You have no control over the 99% of water in the vegetables you eat. You have no control over the water that cools the machinery that makes American the so comfortable (and bored).

You have no control over the fossil fuels used in your name. Eat vegan . . . and the industrial crop must still be trucked/driven to your door by a machine. That road must still be maintained at great expense in asphalt (from fossil fuels) and the truckers must still be fed from convenience stores and fueled at gas stations. Even if it were possible to go electric, the entire web of machinery would still pollute. While population and demand grow faster.


Sounds about right. We are individually insignificant. Big deal...it makes people FEEL better, to recycle, let their lawn go grey, drive EVs, eat less meat, etc etc.

And the only thing that matters to most people nowadays is their feelings...screw everyone else.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 9292
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 22:51:24

"...were we to extricate our government from the tentacles of the wealthy, we might perhaps turn this ship of shit around."

Nicely put!
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 19990
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 02:00:23

pstarr wrote:Yes Adam, our individual insignificance and resulting paralysis is killing the planet and our progenies chance for a good life. But were we to extricate our government from the tentacles of the wealthy, we might perhaps turn this ship of shit (oh excuse me. :shock: I meant ship lol) around.

Probably the best point so far.
But how can that be done?
No matter what you do, the wealthy are there to take the fruits of your labor away from you. If you refuse to buy a wafer board house, they raise your rent. If you try to raise a garden in your front yard, they send their minions to fine you or jail you. Every inch of our lives are controlled by the wealthy, and it is impossible to make a real change with a vote. If you notice, every piece of legislation lately has a net result of either giving more taxpayer cash to the wealthy, shielding corporations or the wealthy from prosecution, or taking power away from the people they supposedly represent. This is legislation proposed and approved by both sides, red and blue.
I don't know what to do other than drop out and play in the garden (which is actually kind of fun, so I'm not hurting too badly).
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
John Prine
Hawkcreek
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Washington State

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby Cog » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 08:17:03

The rich already pay most of the taxes. You should be grateful to take the crumbs which you are allowed to have. More nose to the grindstone and less whining will make your life happier.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 08:19:22

The government has always been interwoven with the wealthy. There was just enough excess during the times of abundance during the past 100 years or so for some of that wealth to spread downwards. It is now contracting back to the historical norm I would think.

As long as the masses of individuals continue to accept the current arrangement you cant blame the government or the wealthy.

Stirrings and rumblings are out there, discontentment is rising, but it does raise a question.

Is there a historical example of a more enlightened and egalitarian society that we can draw from as a blue print from where we need to go if we did extract the wealthy from the government? If not then we would need to invent one.

From where would the wisdom come from to draw up a more sustainable living arrangement?
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 08:45:19

"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 12:07:32

Just replying to Ibon's inquiry as to "Is there a historical example of a more enlightened and egalitarian society" From the link " American Indian culture emphasizes harmony with nature, endurance
of suffering, respect and non-interference toward others, a strong belief that man is inherently good and should be respected for his decisions."
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 12:37:14

pstarr wrote:Yes Adam, our individual insignificance and resulting paralysis is killing the planet and our progenies chance for a good life. But were we to extricate our government from the tentacles of the wealthy, we might perhaps turn this ship of shit (oh excuse me. :shock: I meant ship lol) around.


Not just individual insignificance. Our species is insignificant as well.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 9292
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 12:41:15

onlooker wrote:Just replying to Ibon's inquiry as to "Is there a historical example of a more enlightened and egalitarian society" From the link " American Indian culture emphasizes harmony with nature, endurance
of suffering, respect and non-interference toward others, a strong belief that man is inherently good and should be respected for his decisions."


How do those highly generic principles apply to running a highly overpopulated and technologically complex world?
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
User avatar
ennui2
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 3920
Joined: Tue 20 Sep 2011, 10:37:02
Location: Not on Homeworld

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 12:47:03

My impression is that, on the one hand, every culture has the seeds of hubris that could drive them to live unsustainably in the right conditions.

But on the other hand, any small-scale culture that has existed within any limited area for any length of time has, pretty much by definition, learned how to live relatively sustainably within that particular environment.

If they hadn't they wouldn't have been able to continue there for very long--they would have used up whatever resources there were and have had to move on.

Our problem is that we are the inheritors of basically a robber culture--pretty much all Western European nations (and many others) have royalty and now ruling classes whose ancestors trace back to the Germanic tribes that swept through and pillaged the remains of the Roman Empire. They went on to pillage each other, and then ultimate to pillage the rest of the world during the period known as 'discovery' or colonialism.

Now we are pillaging the planet. But we won't have any other planet to go to as we make this one less and less habitable.

As with many other issues, we have mindsets that developed under different circumstances that collectively have a hard time seen these global limits, especially if there is still a buck to be made somewhere by anyone by exploiting one more 'natural resource.'
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 19990
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 13:17:19

I do not wish to stray too far from the original post. However, it could be relevant. Pstarr says that individual actions are irrelevant and others say that the only hope is to extricate the wealthy from govt. So can you turn the title of the post around to say the political is personal. Nothing can be done by one individual but what about millions if not billions. We are fast approaching a situation whereby the living on this planet is becoming intolerable both physically and quite demoralizing as so many see the cancer of corruption in all spheres and lack of progress on important issues. So, can everyone not agree that we are mandated with changing our consciousness towards a more enlightened one. One in keeping with those generic principles you referred to Ennui. In this chaotic and unruly world we live in, we have a chance to come together for a goal that supersedes our petty daily individual concerns. The goal of at least trying to turn this huge ship around. The generic principles has practiced by American Indians serve as our guide. Respect for each other and a harmonious relation with each other and nature is exactly what we need now and will always need into the future. Okay, do I see this happening probably not.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The personal is not political

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 13:28:03

The wealthy have so much more than the rest of us, of course they pay taxes, but not nearly enough.

Sander's claim that"the top one-tenth of 1 percent" of Americans "own almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent" has been found to be 'Mostly True' by Politifact.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/sta ... icans-hav/

When .1% has more than just about everyone else combined, they clearly will be less inconvenienced by taxes than people struggling (or not able) to make ends meet.

But as this ruling class also controls the law makers, a revolution is needed, for justice, and to save the planet.

Time to break out the pitchforks!! :-D
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 19990
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 69 guests