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The One Percent

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 19:58:27

The idea that we should find a job we love is a nice idea but pretty inane.

Think about it, if it was fun then we would be standing in line and buying tickets. Work sucks, that's why we get paid to do it.

The harder, more difficult, less desirable job, the better it pays. Up to a point where you reach the upper echelons and get money crammed down your cray for being a big shot.

Social Workers and their ilk by and large need to have a Masters and likely some further specialization training and certifications in order to barely make mi I in wage. Why? Because a lot of folks want to make the world a better place, make other people happy, be care givers.

Honey pot operators get paid little for an undesirable job because it requires low skill.

Engineers get paid relatively well. Getting through an engineering program is hard work. Getting a PE requires additional hard work. Your work product may well require you to take responsibility for its success. Long hours are often required. It generally requires a high altitude that many don't have. Few today want to accept these hardships and do that hard work. So engineers get paid well even though it's a physically cush job.

Not 100% true but true enough.

I think this was a lot of what was behind Occupy Wall Street. A lot of those kids had degrees in something they thought was interesting but that paid squat.

It begs the question of what college should teach.
Broad general education to make folks better citizens
OF
Some useful skill where young folks can make money
OR
Whatever there is interest in so ling as it brings students in the door.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 22:26:02

KaiserJeep wrote: The stockholders can cashier the Board Of Directors, via a proxy fight,

Yes they can so that means they have control. :)
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 00:34:35

Ibon wrote:
The middle class is dying. Both by design and by the ecological feedbacks of human overshoot. Internalize this truth as a constant.

Work within the system but reject the values that entrap so many. If you do so you live debt free. It takes discipline. Hard work. Your status is your strength in community. Your recreation is your garden and nearby forest. They are free and charge no admission. Your mobility is your legs, bicycle,public transportation and a used car. Your deep contentment comes from the self reliance that not being in debt provides together with learning how to fix things. You do not have to enter the rat race.

In this strategy you render into Caeser the bare minimum to keep yourself out of jail, that is the extent that you play by the rules. The rest is yours. The worlds economy will remain resilient enough for you to do this. The vast majority around you will remain imprisoned, on a tread mill in perpetual debt, and you will be free. It wont come easy. But it is possible.


The irony is that most people worldwide are not part of the middle class and live generally with "the bare minimum," but not out of choice.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Squilliam » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 06:38:56

Newfie wrote:The idea that we should find a job we love is a nice idea but pretty inane.

Think about it, if it was fun then we would be standing in line and buying tickets. Work sucks, that's why we get paid to do it.

The harder, more difficult, less desirable job, the better it pays. Up to a point where you reach the upper echelons and get money crammed down your cray for being a big shot.

Social Workers and their ilk by and large need to have a Masters and likely some further specialization training and certifications in order to barely make mi I in wage. Why? Because a lot of folks want to make the world a better place, make other people happy, be care givers.

Honey pot operators get paid little for an undesirable job because it requires low skill.

Engineers get paid relatively well. Getting through an engineering program is hard work. Getting a PE requires additional hard work. Your work product may well require you to take responsibility for its success. Long hours are often required. It generally requires a high altitude that many don't have. Few today want to accept these hardships and do that hard work. So engineers get paid well even though it's a physically cush job.

Not 100% true but true enough.

I think this was a lot of what was behind Occupy Wall Street. A lot of those kids had degrees in something they thought was interesting but that paid squat.

It begs the question of what college should teach.
Broad general education to make folks better citizens
OF
Some useful skill where young folks can make money
OR
Whatever there is interest in so ling as it brings students in the door.


The problem with this kind of argument is that it relies on the idea of rationality and market determinism based on perfect markets. A significant reason why some people get paid more than others is simply that the people purchasing the services of others have no good idea how to judge the quality of the other person. How does a non-lawyer know for instance what good legal advice is? How does a non-doctor judge the quality of medical advice? How do you know your stock broker is good, or if he was simply incredibly lucky over the past few years? The best rated renal clinic in America for a while was a scam that faked doing transplants, and the people rated it highly whilst going to an early grave. Even with insight into the true value of things you are still bounded within the market by others that may not know. If the going rate for CEO's is $1,000,000+ then even knowing that is ridiculous you still have to pay that. A lot of the market determinism stuff really is illogical. The premise effectively is the conclusion.

I'm currently at University, and I get the impression 'what the hell am I doing?' from a lot of people. There is a sense that a lot of people are going through the motions without actually believing in the education that they are getting. Probably the most important lessons are the ones you don't want to learn. Anyone can pick up things that gratify themselves, stroke their ego's and confirm their beliefs in the world. The best lessons are the ones that you don't want to learn because they are the most challenging to take on board.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby baha » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 06:58:43

Interesting discussion,

We've identified why there is a lack of integrity in today's corporations. Whose in charge? Who is on the hook when they make poor decisions? Who goes to jail?...There must be someone since the SCOTUS said they are actually people! I say avoid the confusion and hold them all responsible not just the scapegoat.

And Ibon you have ID'ed another dichotomy.

Broad general education to make folks better citizens
OR
Some useful skill where young folks can make money

I thought money was the tool we use to judge a persons contribution to society...it used to be. Our value system has been corrupted by bankers and politicians. Is being a good citizen a useful skill or not?

These are some of the paradigms that need to change. Making money is not an end in itself. I needed to find a way to enjoy what I was doing, while still making enough money to survive, while making what I feel is a worthwhile contribution to society.

From TPTB value system I have failed miserably and am approaching poverty, From my own I am in control of my destiny, largely independent, and working to change BAU. They should be very scared...they have no hooks in me.

Education is a what you make of it. The years of hard work and process repetition can someday lead to you to a world shaking revelation, or not. Your best chance of making that happen is to study what excites you. I knew I wanted to be a scientist...It's a crying shame that people have to base their decisions on money instead of aptitude and interest. I was offered a chance at grad school but I told my professor I had to go make some money...

It would be ok if money was actually awarded based on your contribution to society instead of how well you can 'game the system'.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby baha » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:23:08

It's just sad...

Bankers make the big bucks by leaching it off the top of everyone else.
Engineers make fair money but they hold your life in their hands every time you drive over a bridge.
Teachers don't make squat and they hold the future of our society in their hands.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:26:25

There is some truth to that saying that you achieve a more profound depth in life not when you get what you want but when you persevere through adversity. So part of this discussion is related to the sacrifices one makes in ones life and how one manages the hard knocks that are part of it. We are all discussing here fulfillment and contentment in designing the perfect society and having the perfect job. In a way this is part of the problem, this striving for an idealization. Life happens while you are making other plans. This will be profoundly true as the consequences of human overshoot unfold. The world will be an imperfect mess for all of us. I would start by stop chasing the ideals of a perfect society and learn equilibrium and harmony while cleaning toilets.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:27:44

baha wrote:It's just sad...

Bankers make the big bucks by leaching it off the top of everyone else.
Engineers make fair money but they hold your life in their hands every time you drive over a bridge.
Teachers don't make squat and they hold the future of our society in their hands.

And athletes and entertainers afford little to society yet get paid royally
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:33:41

That's right Baha, you had to go make money. At least you recognized that. It seems many don't until they have that advanced degree, along with big debts, and can't find a job.

Here in the USA our colleges are money making institutions who will seek whatever product people will buy. When I went into the USCG, back in the dark ages, they put us all through an extensive battery of aptitude tests. They were not going to spend money putting someone through 6 months of electronics school that did not have the wherewithal to pass. I had an engineer working for me once who had NO, ZERO, NADA spatial relations ability. He may have been a superb mathematician but he was a lousy engineer because he could not visualize anything. How does that happen?

The 1% either inherit money or have a talent AND a passion for making money. They probably have a pretty liberal application of ethics, although I'm sure they would disagree.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:35:20

A viper was curled up around a flowering fuschia bush this morning, part of a hummingbird wing still sticking out of its mouth.

Ponder a moment how this hummingbird, in all its iridescent glory and grace of wing, the early morning sun full of hope and promise, flew up to this nectar bearing blossom, holding steady, in anticipation of its sweet reward, moved forward and just as it was ready to insert its bill the viper struck.

Shit happens. That hummingbird did not get what it wanted and most likely you wont either.

The elite are more like parasites than vipers but they aint going away any sooner than the viper will.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:39:07

18010414_1470031936405164_2948660927033438942_n.jpg
18010414_1470031936405164_2948660927033438942_n.jpg (42.32 KiB) Viewed 293 times
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:43:15

onlooker wrote:
baha wrote:It's just sad...

Bankers make the big bucks by leaching it off the top of everyone else.
Engineers make fair money but they hold your life in their hands every time you drive over a bridge.
Teachers don't make squat and they hold the future of our society in their hands.

And athletes and entertainers afford little to society yet get paid royally


They DO make a big contribution to society, you just have to look for it. In our society we know a lot of people but we don't have a cohesive community. We are constantly meeting new people and interacting with people we only know slightly. That is hard work, we are never really sure where the other person fits in. We can't tell if they are from our tribe or not.

That's where celibreties fit in. They are someon we all know, something we share, a touchstone with the other person so that we can be assured they are OK. I think this is especially true of sports figures for guys. You can have a business meeting and, during a break say, "So anyone catch the Eagles/Cowboys game?" That will usually start a conversation and break the ice. If, on the other hand, you are like me and reply "Oh, I don't follow sports." well then you just threw a damp rag on the conversation.

So yeah, celebs provide a big service, they help with societal cohesion.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby baha » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 08:08:04

Nice Ibon, but I could turn that around.
Ponder the viper sunning on a branch. Connected to the branch and the earth in a way we will never be. A growing hunger just beginning. The hummingbird may not realize his connection but he flies up there and holds still while the viper strikes. The hummingbird played his part just as the viper will in turn. All connected...

The elite are the hummingbird, oblivious to their connections. That is their weakness and all I have to do to prevail is embrace mine. Mother Earth will take care of the rest.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 09:54:07

Newfie wrote:
onlooker wrote:
baha wrote:It's just sad...

Bankers make the big bucks by leaching it off the top of everyone else.
Engineers make fair money but they hold your life in their hands every time you drive over a bridge.
Teachers don't make squat and they hold the future of our society in their hands.

And athletes and entertainers afford little to society yet get paid royally


They DO make a big contribution to society, you just have to look for it. In our society we know a lot of people but we don't have a cohesive community. We are constantly meeting new people and interacting with people we only know slightly. That is hard work, we are never really sure where the other person fits in. We can't tell if they are from our tribe or not.

That's where celibreties fit in. They are someon we all know, something we share, a touchstone with the other person so that we can be assured they are OK. I think this is especially true of sports figures for guys. You can have a business meeting and, during a break say, "So anyone catch the Eagles/Cowboys game?" That will usually start a conversation and break the ice. If, on the other hand, you are like me and reply "Oh, I don't follow sports." well then you just threw a damp rag on the conversation.

So yeah, celebs provide a big service, they help with societal cohesion.


You beat me too it!

For a tribal/herd species like Homo Sapiens we instinctively seek a 'leader figure' to unite behind. If you like sports you pick a star athlete, if you like fashion you pick someone who the culture sees as a fashion guru or 'thought leader'. If you are a lawyer you look to the Supreme Court or famous barristers of the present day. If you are a peak oil nerd you look to Ken Deffeyyes or Colin Campbell.

It is just the way humans are instinctively wired, and just because the icons you are drawn too are different than the icons the majority are drawn too does not mean the majority are evil and you are virtuous :oops: :twisted: 8O :-D

The bigger the crowd following an icon, any icon, the more advertisers will pay that icon to use their brand or otherwise endorse it. If scientists like Dr. Hansen were as widely followed as the basketball stars then he would get the same kind of pay offers for endorsements of things like nuclear power and carbon free energy suppliers. For better or worse most average folks do not identify with Dr. Hansen, they never once imagined themselves as being a brilliant scientist. On the other hand 80 percent of males do imagine themselves as being a star athlete when growing up, even though only a tiny percentage of them will ever become professional athletes.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 10:04:20

Yes, you guys are describing well why these "celebrities" get paid as much as they do and what their "attraction" is. Yet Tanada your point I think supports mine. Who affords really more to society someone like Lady Gaga or Dr. James Hansen? I think we know the answer to that. So even lay people who still may follow more musicians, actors or sports figures concede that people like scientists and teachers and doctors should be paid more than they are especially in comparison to the former whose contributions are not really as valuable to society as the latter.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 10:21:17

onlooker wrote:Yes, you guys are describing well why these "celebrities" get paid as much as they do and what their "attraction" is. Yet Tanada your point I think supports mine. Who affords really more to society someone like Lady Gaga or Dr. James Hansen? I think we know the answer to that. So even lay people who still may follow more musicians, actors or sports figures concede that people like scientists and teachers and doctors should be paid more than they are especially in comparison to the former whose contributions are not really as valuable to society as the latter.


Clearly you don't spend much time talking to Joe6P and his wife Jane6P. Drop by your local convenience store and ask a random stranger who is more important Eli Manning or James Hansen. I wager 80+ percent of them will automatically say Eli Manning because they know exactly who he is and what he does, and if they have ever heard of Dr. Hansen they have forgotten why he is important and in what context he is important.

Heck I barely ever watch sporting events and I know the name Eli Manning because I hear it randomly spoken at restaurants or on the radio as I am changing stations.

Or if you are not interested in talking sports mention the name Bruce Jenner/Caitlyn Jenner compared to Richard Alley. Dr. Alley has made great achievements as a scientist but I bet you 80% of the random population has never heard of him while all of them have heard of Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner.

This doesn't make your fellow citizens evil, it just means science has never interested them and they stopped worrying about it the day of their last school test that involved science.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 10:28:10

Ibon wrote:A viper was curled up around a flowering fuschia bush this morning, part of a hummingbird wing still sticking out of its mouth.

Ponder a moment how this hummingbird, in all its iridescent glory and grace of wing, the early morning sun full of hope and promise, flew up to this nectar bearing blossom, holding steady, in anticipation of its sweet reward, moved forward and just as it was ready to insert its bill the viper struck.

Shit happens. That hummingbird did not get what it wanted and most likely you wont either.

The elite are more like parasites than vipers but they aint going away any sooner than the viper will.

If they hummingbirds had more brains, they would get together, sharpen their pointy little beaks, and kill the hell out of that viper.
But it probably stands more chance of happening in the hummingbird/viper world than in the peon/elite world.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 10:59:49

The viper sat there realizing he had waited for hours and the hummingbird was less than 5 grams of protein, and that he had killed a thing of beauty for little return. The morning sun was warm, and he soon fell asleep, and he dreamt he was much bigger, and was hiding in the kudzu, and suddenly a large and juicy kudzu ape came stomping along, earbuds blazing music in it's ears, and dropped his bag of corn curls and bent down right in front of him to pick them up...
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:25:19

I have that same wide streak of anarchy and rebellion that is the birthright of every American, so blatantly on display here. These heartfelt emotions about the One Percent differ in no important way from the late 1700's when our political divide was between homegrown American rebels and the loyal subjects of the British Crown.

However, the sad truth of the matter is that for each and every one of us, our political influence begins and ends with one vote. Our ability to affect the system we exist within begins and ends with how many millions of dollars we are willing to dump into that sewer of a swamp we call Washington, DC. I don't know about the rest of you, but I basicly plan to live by the rules, conserve what meager wealth I have accumulated, and use it to care for me and my wife. Perhaps if means permit, a nice bequest to the grandkids, which will in no way relieve them of the necessity of working for a living - as I believe work is the most important part of education.

WE are the 90 percenters, comprised of a vanishing Middle Class and a very few who will "make it" into the 10% or landowner class, which in this country is divided pretty evenly between family wealth and small/medium business owners. The 1% we are talking about are the 10% wealthiest of the landowner class, and really are the only ones with the financial means to sponsor legislation, and change the rules we live by.

Never forget that the largest business by far within the 10% class is the Federal Government. They are not going away, and during the coming energy crisis, they will possess extraordinary powers, given to them by themselves, via Federal legislation.

Note also that it won't matter how many small arms YOU possess, because this is not 1776. THEY will have millions of troops, an entire Navy, an entire Air Force, millions of police, spy in the sky satellites, armed drones dealing sudden death from the sky, and a "Big Brother" view into your house and everything you do on the internet, backed up with supercomputers that maintain accurate profiles of your personality and your political views.

In fact, they already have those things, and are monitoring this thread. Say hello to Big Brother.
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Re: The One Percent

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 12:03:59

Eloquent and in line with my take KJ. The incredible combination of available space, resources, and the fossil fuel exploit (especially petroleum) led to a unique American experience that I lived and many of us have. If you work hard, and are blessed with health, the ability to survive and thrive and the creation of a large middle class became possible and viable. This unique situation is not actually over, but it is at a point past apogee where wealth concentration and corporate hedging and consolidation view this middle class as indentured servants. Some believe conservative application of strict constitutional interpretation made this unique environment instead of abundance and cheap energy combined with same, others are convinced the huge surpluses during the apogee of this unique societal period are still around and they can give away success via government largesse. Finally, of course the technology has allowed the tracking of internal and external sources of threats to the nation to a granularity and focus unbelievable a decade or more in the past. The big unallocated resource and cheap energy fiesta comes to an end, and of course the hard ass dance of Darwinism is the last dance of any big party. Having said all of that, if I get a shot at what my twisted idea of a potential joke is, I'm going to take that shot.
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