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THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 20:03:53

dohboi wrote:ocean acidification could drive a cascading loss of biodiversity in some marine habitats

Except it is not. Here is a beautiful reef in highly acidic water.

Unlike all the other deteriorating coral reefs worldwide, this remote reef is not ruined by human excrement, agricultural runoff and development. Nothing to do with ocean CO2.

And some of the most rewarding. There's coral everywhere. The bottom is carpeted with fan corals, big boulder-shaped corals, long green tendril-y corals, even squishy corals, all jockeying for position.

There are bright, colorful fish too. It's a parade of life.

But here's the thing — Cohen says this raucous coral ecosystem shouldn't even exist. The water is way too acidic.

“We started taking water samples,” she says, casting back to an earlier visit here. “We analyzed them, and we couldn't believe it. Of the 17 coral reef systems (around the world) that we've been monitoring, this is the most acidic site that we've found.”

The higher acidity of the water here is natural, but it defies all expectations. Conventional wisdom is that corals don't like acidic water, and the water in Nikko Bay is acidic enough that it should keep many of these corals from building up their calcium carbonate skeletons.

Even weirder, Cohen says, is that the acidity goes up as you move from the barrier reefs offshore into Palau's island bays, and that as that happens, the coral cover and the coral diversity increase as well.

From everything we know about corals, Cohen says, this just shouldn't happen.“There's something different about Palau.”

In Palau coral reefs thrive in naturally acidic water

"From everything we know about corals, Cohen says, this just shouldn't happen.“There's something different about Palau."
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dissident » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 20:20:55

https://www.whoi.edu/news-release/PalauCorals

Barkley and her colleagues found bioerosion rates in Palau corals increased eleven-fold as pH decreased from the barrier reefs to the Rock Island bays. When comparing those results to other low-pH reef sites, a definite pattern emerged.

"All of these naturally low-pH sites that Hannah compared are different from one another in terms of physical setting, ecological connectivity, frequencies of variability and so on. What she discovered is that the only common and consistent response to low pH across all these sites is significantly increased bioerosion," says Cohen.


A previous study published January 2015 in the journal Geology by Thomas DeCarlo, a member of Cohen's lab and a coauthor on this paper, showed that the influence of pH on bioerosion is exacerbated by high levels of nutrients. That finding implies that local management strategies, such as controlling runoff from land, can help to slow the impact of ocean acidification on coral reef decline. Increased runoff from areas of intense agriculture and coastal development often carries high levels of nutrients that will interact with decreasing pH to accelerate coral reef decline.


In other words high pH ain't so great and nutrient runoff makes it worse. Hardly the "high CO2 values are great for life" BS being spouted.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 21:19:15

I said nothing about high (oceanic) CO2 values being great for life . . . (in this post). . . merely that acidic oceans is not all bad. That is what the study concluded.

Not obvious to the GW-type doomer. Kind of like high background radiation (above 10,000 ft, Kerula India etc) that also not life-threatening. Except to environmental-meme damaged GW hysteric lol
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 23:24:28

Joker can't even spell Kerala right.

About what we can expect about everything else from him.

Pure and utter bs.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 00:31:18

dohboi wrote:Joker can't even spell Kerala right.

About what we can expect about everything else from him.

Pure and utter bs.

Nice insult doh, but so sorry dude. You already lost this one.

Corals thrived in acidic waters when CO2 exceeded 2000 ppm . . . at the time ancient petroleum carbonate reefs were laid down. Those waters were MORE acidic than now. Corals are thriving right now in acidic waters. So what is your argument again?

It's human waste and agricultural runoff. Moron.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 09:15:27

There are a few corals in a very few specific places that show some resistance to acidification. We are all glad about that.

But most corals around the world are dying. If you don't know that, you really haven't been paying any attention at all, and there's not much use trying to further enlighten you.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:52:40

dohboi wrote:There are a few corals in a very few specific places that show some resistance to acidification. We are all glad about that.
If that is the case, then those acid-resistant corals will move around the world faster than the noxious gases emitted from your blowhole. Such is the nature of nature.

dohboi wrote:But most corals around the world are dying. If you don't know that, you really haven't been paying any attention at all, and there's not much use trying to further enlighten you.

The corals are dying from human waste and agriculture runoff. You have no proof, no controlled experiment to test coral mortality as a function of acidity. All conjecture, yet you continue to act a wise ass . . . with a horrible haughty attitude.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby ritter » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:22:24

My understanding is that the primary cause of "coral bleaching" is coral jettisoning the algae that live in them due to increased water temperature. They may or may not survive this, dependent upon how long the warmth lasts and how quickly the algae recolonize. Ocean acidification disrupts the ability of coral to grow by dissolving the calcium used for its structure. The two phenomenon are different, but not unrelated. Both happened naturally. Both are being accelerated and exacerbated by climate change.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 13:02:22

peabrain wrote:Corals thrived in acidic waters when CO2 exceeded 2000 ppm . . . at the time ancient petroleum carbonate reefs were laid down.


Wrong again, ye of little brain matter. You just make this shit up, don't you.

The evolutionary history of modern corals is divisible into three geological intervals (1) the Paleogene, when the survivors of end-Cretaceous and Late Palaeocene extinctions proliferated into a diverse cosmopolitan fauna, (2) the Miocene, when this fauna became subdivided into the broad biogeographic provinces we have today and pre-cursors of most extant species evolved, and (3) the Plio-Pleistocene to present, when the world went into full glacial mode and modern distribution patterns emerged.


The first organisms that might be called scleractinians are known from Paleozoic fossils from China and Scotland, but the earliest proliferation of organisms that were clearly ancestral Scleractinia are Middle Triassic and consisted of at least seven, but possibly nine, suborders. These corals did not build reefs; they were small solitary or phaceloid organisms of the shallow Tethys of southern Europe and Indo-China.

Triassic corals were not the ecological equivalents of modern corals; corallites were large and poorly integrated so that phacelloid growth forms (where branches are composed of individual corallites) were dominant. Reconstruction of a Late Triassic coral community. The taxa portrayed may not have occurred in the same geographic region at the same time. The dominant growth forms of the corals are massive and phacelloid. There were no intricately branching corals such are found today and most corals had large corallites. Reconstruction of a Late Triassic coral community. The taxa portrayed may not have occurred in the same geographic region at the same time. The dominant growth forms of the corals are massive and phacelloid. There were no intricately branching corals such are found today and most corals had large corallites.

There was a 5-8 million year hiatus between the collapse of Triassic reef development and the onset of Jurassic reefs, a time of origin of many new scleractinian families.

link


The first 'corals' appeared in the mid-Triassic. During the Triassic-Jurassic extinction event, a time of high ocean acidity and atmospheric CO2, reef development collapsed for millions of years, and resumed again with new coral families in the Jurassic once CO2 came back down.

The precursors of the corals we have today evolved in the mid-Miocene and have NEVER BEFORE seen high ocean acidity or CO2 levels higher than current levels.

The skeletons of corals are made of calcium carbonate which dissolves in conditions of high acidity.

And by the way, carbonate reefs are a classification of a sediment type consisting of large particles. It is not a reference to coral reefs.

You should realize that any time you make something up and post it, I'll be following right behind with the truth and make you look foolish. So do yourself a favor. If you don't know it, don't post it. It wouldn't hurt if you did a little research at non-denier websites and know the truth.
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 13:39:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 13:21:05

No Cid, not in In Palau. Where the reefs remain pristine and un-shit-upon lol

ritter wrote:My understanding is that the primary cause of "coral bleaching" is coral jettisoning the algae that live in them due to increased water temperature. They may or may not survive this, dependent upon how long the warmth lasts and how quickly the algae recolonize. Ocean acidification disrupts the ability of coral to grow by dissolving the calcium used for its structure. The two phenomenon are different, but not unrelated. Both happened naturally. Both are being accelerated and exacerbated by climate change.

It's our shit. The problem is cleared up when we stop shitting into our precious waters.
Water quality and coral bleaching thresholds: Formalising the linkage
for the inshore reefs of the Great Barrier Reef, Australia

But we'll need to hold it in :x
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 13:39:34

As stated there are a host of reasons for coral bleaching and coral die-off that have been well documented. It is not solely the domain of ocean temperature or solar irradiance but can be due to other controls such as pollution release, overfishing, destructive fishing practices, coastal development, introduction of non-indigenous species, unsustainable tourism and tsunamis, etc. There are laboratory studies that support the idea of acidification but they are largely unrealistic simply because they do not apply scale factors appropriately and that is demonstrated by contradictory laboratory experiments that demonstrate certain species resilience in the face of acidification. Two things are important to note:
1. Current oceans are more alkaline than they have been throughout the history of modern corals
2. Modern corals originated some 200 Mya in the mid-Triassic.
With regard to point 1 corals have subsisted in waters that were closer to neutral for millions of years. Since the first recognition of modern corals some 200 Mya ocean waters have been around a 7.7 PH whereas they are currently at about 8.1 PH. This suggests modern corals are able to adapt quite well to more acidic conditions. With regard to point 2 Scleractinian corals were first recognized in the Triassic and are the most important reef builders today. They thrived in oceans worldwide over the past 200 million years when ocean temperatures were much higher. Indeed temperatures were considerably higher on average from the Triassic through to the Eocene, a period of more than 150 million years.

The point here is if you use earth history as an empirical experiment you are left concluding that modern corals should not currently be at risk from ocean temperatures or acidification but other issues could be of importance. Lot's of literature on this topic which I can supply references to if anyone is interested.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 13:48:35

Already preempted you RockDoc. (see my previous post) Once again you twist the truth with the best of them.

Anyone who wants the truth about the history of corals, follow the link in my above post.

Peabrain, if you think significantly increased bio-erosion is 'Pristine', you don't know what the word means. Sometimes it's hard to know who you are lying to the most. Us or yourself.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 13:57:58

Someone please show me a coral reef off Long Island. Or Oslo. :x

If it were temperature damaging them, the corals would move post haste. All corals have a motile life-phase.
A planula is the free-swimming, flattened, ciliated, bilaterally symmetric larval form of various cnidarian species. Some groups of Nemerteans too produce larvae that are very similar to the planula.[1]

They float in the ocean currents and settle and attach anywhere they damn well please. On rocks, other coral old bathtubs and streamships. If the oceans warm, the corals move. Quickly in a year or two.

It's definitely our crap (not that in this thread, but the real thing) that is killing the coral. :-x
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 14:20:22

coral expels algae when water too warm.....


http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/8693 ... coral-reef
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 14:40:17

kiwichick wrote:coral expels algae when water too warm.....


http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/8693 ... coral-reef

We know that, it happens all over when the water get toooooooo warm. But how about those places in the ocean where the water is not warm enough . . . then warms a bit and just might become picture postcard perfect for the darling corals lol

Let's discuss:

Yamano H, Sugihara K, Nomura K (2011) Rapid poleward range expansion of tropical reef corals in response to rising sea surface temperatures. Geophys Res Lett 38: L04601

Baird AH, Sommer B, Madin JS (2012) Pole-ward range expansion of Acropora spp. along the east coast of Australia. Coral Reefs 31: 1063–1063

It's nice to have these nagging horrible fear about the poor suffering Mother. Does a little balance really hurt? Does that make me a insufferable denialist? I guess so.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 15:09:38

@ pstarr.....the point is that the oceans are warming......and sea levels are rising ....coral will not only have to move to the Arctic or Antarctic....and move vertically with rising sea levels ....they will also have to evolve to cope with acidic waters

but wait there's more ...falling oxygen levels

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015 ... ygen-fish/
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 15:34:04

kiwi do you suffer from AADD? I posted a study (above) on corals living in highly acidic water. And no, corals will not have to move to the Arctic or the mountain tops until at least the Year 2525. Or is that In the year 2525, if man is still alive ,if woman can survive?
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 15:48:15

no .....and I prefer to get my information from the experts .....but thanks for posting about the possible exception which fuels your denial
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 15:53:02

kiwichick wrote:no .....and I prefer to get my information from the experts .....but thanks for posting about the possible exception which fuels your denial

problems with my linked studies? I guess we have different experts then. My are right and yours are LOSERS [smilie=la.gif]
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 15:57:52

@ pstarr.....and if you had looked at the last link I posted you would see that the vast majority of marine life is at risk of , at the very least , rapid decline......

the WHO estimate marine protein equates to between 13 and 16 % of total global protein................


http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/3_f ... ndex5.html consumed by humans
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