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THE Noam Chomsky Thread (merged)

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 18 May 2016, 20:07:52

Chomsky is actually a pretty famous intellectual. In fact he has a new documentary called Requiem for the American Dream about today's financial shenanigans that can be streamed from NetFlix and is worth 72 minutes of your time.

However he is as blinded by ideology as is any ignorant redneck you care to name. The GOP did not cause global warming, nor species extinctions. Nor are the two related. It is stupid to focus on one single aspect of the multitude of impacts humans have on this globe, and imply that stopping, reducing, or altering that singular behavior would "save us".

There is a simple enough to understand problem, and I have been expressing it as simply as possible for years in this Forum. There are 7.1+ Billion humans busily consuming all the natural resources of a planet that can sustain less than one billion humans. Therefore, the planet dies. Now there are two paths to the future where some humans can survive.

One way is to reduce the human population below 1 billion in an act of human genocide. Then act to restore and conserve the remaining species diversity. Then manage the human species below the sustainable population number. Not only is the genocide absolutely necessary, but we are running out of time to do so - and there is zero chance that we could wait for a natural, resource-constrained population reduction, there is no time - the world has been dying for over two centuries at an ever-accelerating rate. That this "event" has been occurring your entire life, and that of generations before you, does not make it any less of a mass extinction event - it is still millenia quicker than prior mass extinctions.

I personally do not have the courage or the hatred of humanity to advocate for the (absolutely necessary) genocide to save the planet. I am an advocate for the human species, the planet is only the creche that shelters the childhood of the humans. Now we move some of our species off the dying world and into space. The species survives, the planet dies, and we still have human souls because we did not exterminate 7 billion people, they did it to themselves.

I no longer even argue this position in this Forum, because it is moot. The extreme position of the AGW fanboys is a really stupid one, because they cannot accept the facts - they would have you believe that we would survive if we simply quit burning gasoline and coal. That there are an endless number of other resource constraints following fossil fuels is being ignored - just reduce carbon dioxide emissions, and life will be all sweetness and light.

I don't even have to argue, the momentum of 7 Billion people, each doing what they want, and the resulting BAU, is what is making the survival of the planet's ecosystem impossible. Very quickly, the choice will evolve into an even simpler one: Humans can die with the planet, or survive off the planet.

I will win the argument in the end - but I have no doubt the rest of you will go to your graves claiming feebly that AGW is real and we could save ourselves by riding bicycles instead of SUVs.

Edit: For the record, the people who cause carbon dioxide emissions are those who own ICE vehicles and burn fuels in them, and those who connect to and use the power grid. They are not GOP members, nor should anybody be blinded by political ideology when it comes to survival. Those who kill the planet are all around you, and include you yourself.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 18 May 2016, 21:49:58

Sometimes I think this site is like the lounge of an old peoples home and each of us are in our separate rocking chairs , all dysfunctional baby boomers growing old who have created these colorful narratives that we like to repeat again and again. Each of us is twisted in his own unique way. Time to turn off the lights and go to bed......shuffle shuffle shuffle.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 18 May 2016, 22:23:28

KJ wrote: "blinded by ideology as is any ignorant redneck"

Takes one to...well, you know... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ibon, I get the same feeling sometimes. Pretty accurate, I'd say.

The image I prefer, though, is the small town cafe where all the old codgers gather every morning to hash out the same issues they've been hashing out for the last 50 years or so.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 18 May 2016, 22:37:20

"Sometimes I think this site is like the lounge of an old peoples home and each of us are in our separate rocking chairs , all dysfunctional baby boomers growing old who have created these colorful narratives that we like to repeat again and again. Each of us is twisted in his own unique way. Time to turn off the lights and go to bed......shuffle shuffle shuffle."

The scary part is that most of them are about the same age as most of the US Congress! Older than dirt -- that is!
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 18 May 2016, 23:56:54

Nice to see Chomsky actually go after a group that deserves it rather than his self-flagellation of the US or the West as a whole.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby careinke » Thu 19 May 2016, 00:42:13

KaiserJeep wrote:I personally do not have the courage or the hatred of humanity to advocate for the (absolutely necessary) genocide to save the planet. I am an advocate for the human species, the planet is only the creche that shelters the childhood of the humans. Now we move some of our species off the dying world and into space. The species survives, the planet dies, and we still have human souls because we did not exterminate 7 billion people, they did it to themselves.

I no longer even argue this position in this Forum, because it is moot. The extreme position of the AGW fanboys is a really stupid one, because they cannot accept the facts - they would have you believe that we would survive if we simply quit burning gasoline and coal. That there are an endless number of other resource constraints following fossil fuels is being ignored - just reduce carbon dioxide emissions, and life will be all sweetness and light.



KJ, I understand where you are coming from, but I think your vision has a blind spot. Even if billions of people are dying on earth, and the sixth mass extinction continues to accelerate, and sea level rise accelerates faster than expected, all of which I believe will probably happen, it is still cheaper, easier, and a lot more doable to "colonize" earth than to colonize space. You would be able to save many more people colonizing earth, whatever it takes, than trying to do it from the bottom of a huge, expensive to crawl out of gravity hole like earth.

Just sayin
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 19 May 2016, 01:10:29

Kaiser Jeep wrote:...they would have you believe that we would survive if we simply quit burning gasoline and coal. That there are an endless number of other resource constraints following fossil fuels is being ignored - just reduce carbon dioxide emissions, and life will be all sweetness and light.


There is no one on here that I can think of that holds that position other than maybe pstarr. That's just a strawman you made up in your own head. Even Ibon recognizes we are in an Extinction Level Event. He is just hopeful there will be an 'other side' to come out on. Those that do tend to think it might be a good Idea to take your foot off the gas, just in case.

Myself, I advocate nothing other than to make the best of what time you have left. I don't have a hope whatsoever of anyone surviving this. This biosphere regime is kaput, and the planet will go through a hundred million year reset, during which a totally different biosphere will evolve. This ELE is the Permian-Triassic extinction on steroids. I wouldn't even be surprised if we lost our oxygen atmosphere. Oxygen levels got really low in the early Triassic.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 19 May 2016, 01:56:21

As for blaming the GOP, It is time to reframe. It is the Corporatists, who have basically taken over the GOP.

And they are now represented in the Democrats through Hillary Clinton. We are now seeing the schism as the Dem Corporatists do everything in their power to stop Bernie Sanders, including debates scheduled on weekends, where there was little chance of viewership, and changes in rules in state caucuses and primaries, to undermine him and stop his message.

This is not a GOP vs Democrats issue. This is the Corporatists attempting to control BOTH parties, to give YOU no choice.

Time people stopped wasting their energy fighting each other and start fighting THEM. The Corporatists are seizing control of the government. The only power the people have against them.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 19 May 2016, 02:27:45

Cid_Yama wrote:This is not a GOP vs Democrats issue. This is the Corporatists attempting to control BOTH parties, to give YOU no choice.
Time people stopped wasting their energy fighting each other and start fighting THEM. The Corporatists are seizing control of the government. The only power the people have against them.


I have been saying this for a long time. It puzzles me that it isn't obvious to everyone.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 19 May 2016, 02:46:13

careinke wrote:-snip-

KJ, I understand where you are coming from, but I think your vision has a blind spot. Even if billions of people are dying on earth, and the sixth mass extinction continues to accelerate, and sea level rise accelerates faster than expected, all of which I believe will probably happen, it is still cheaper, easier, and a lot more doable to "colonize" earth than to colonize space. You would be able to save many more people colonizing earth, whatever it takes, than trying to do it from the bottom of a huge, expensive to crawl out of gravity hole like earth.

Just sayin


Colonizing anything - even a now-hostile planet that once supported life - requires the tech base we have now. That tech base will be lost in the grim struggle to survive. The knowledge may remain, probably will remain - but the means will be gone, because there will not be raw materials, power, food, clean water, or even a functioning human society.

The colonization must happen in the next few decades. Also, you need to get your mind out of the box that living your whole life on a planet has grown around it. Space colonies can be constructed in endless numbers, have 24X7 solar power, there are far more metals and water and hydrocarbons in the asteroids and atmospheres of the gas giants than on all of Earth. These metals, gases, and ice can be cheaply gathered in space without the two-way trip through a planet's gravity well. Planets are dirty, disease ridden, and infested with human predators. Future humans living in space may indeed spend resources to get to the surface of Earth to salvage plants, animals, invertebrates, etc. to further elaborate the space habitats - or maybe not, depending upon how much genetic engineering expertise we have.

But NOBODY for the love of <insert deity name here> would EVER IN A MILLION YEARS want to live on a planet when they have the choice of living on a space colony. Perish the thought, it'll never happen.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby clif » Thu 19 May 2016, 04:39:58

The extreme position of the AGW fanboys is a really stupid one, because they cannot accept the facts



they cannot accept the facts

Neither can YOU;

Given the current trajectory the planet is on, not just relative to the climate, but also including economic, population and other environmental problems, nobody is going to be able to build out a space colonization program in the next 25 years, and after that the collapse will prohibit it.

Hell the Chinese are the only ones with the financial ability to spend like would be required, but they are wasting their wealth on zombie industries and the lame attempt at creating a consumer society in China to help the lack of consumer spending outside of China.

Nobody else has to possible political will, economic wealth and technological ability in combinations that would make this practical. And their current political will to spend isn't there in the levels needed to build a completely new technology for LONG TERM non ground based supported survival in space.

The non ground based support idea is very important here, because if support was possible from the ground for a space program, we wouldn't need a space program for survival of the species. We might want one for other reasons, but the reason you keep laying out wouldn't be the driver.

Russia is just too disrupted in their society, plus they seem to be putting their chips in ideas like this;

http://www.thearcticinstitute.org/2011/ ... rctic.html

The USA with the head up their arse GOPers aren't going to spend any money building anything, let alone a space colonization empire, Reagan made sure of that. No private finance enterprise has the actual capabilities to put 10,000 people into permanent orbit, no matter the fevered dreams of the GOP and their moneyed trusts.

fact.

bet on it.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 19 May 2016, 05:41:34

clif wrote:
The USA with the head up their arse GOPers aren't going to spend any money building anything, let alone a space colonization empire, Reagan made sure of that. No private finance enterprise has the actual capabilities to put 10,000 people into permanent orbit, no matter the fevered dreams of the GOP and their moneyed trusts.

fact.

bet on it.

Considering that we have a 19.3 trillion national debt you are certainly right that nobody will make a futile attempt to put even a hundred people into permanent orbit. What political party one belongs to has nothing to do with it.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby clif » Fri 20 May 2016, 00:08:51

What political party one belongs to has nothing to do with it.


Has NOTHING to do with what political party you subscribe to, but with the historical FACT that NASA as a space agency was working very well till the privateers can along to make money off of it, with NO regard to their actual mission. Before the money first crowd came along we lead the entire planet in space research, and accomplishments after not so much.

The privateers are still struggling to actually consistently launch rockets, something NASA did regularly in the 1960's, in low earth orbit at that. Returning to the Moon or beyond is out of their reach.

The political ideology came from the right that killed NASA and has stalled our space program for decades, same ideology that has undermines the needed repairs to most of our infrastructure, destroying education, scientific research, and milking the federal budget for their private profit no matter how much damage to the collective commons results.

Too bad the ideology was much more important than the science. 8O

Kinda reminds me of how they stand on climate change eh? :oops:
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 20 May 2016, 08:30:35

clif wrote:
What political party one belongs to has nothing to do with it.


Has NOTHING to do with what political party you subscribe to, but with the historical FACT that NASA as a space agency was working very well till the privateers can along to make money off of it, with NO regard to their actual mission. Before the money first crowd came along we lead the entire planet in space research, and accomplishments after not so much.

The privateers are still struggling to actually consistently launch rockets, something NASA did regularly in the 1960's, in low earth orbit at that. Returning to the Moon or beyond is out of their reach.

The political ideology came from the right that killed NASA and has stalled our space program for decades, same ideology that has undermines the needed repairs to most of our infrastructure, destroying education, scientific research, and milking the federal budget for their private profit no matter how much damage to the collective commons results.

Too bad the ideology was much more important than the science. 8O

Kinda reminds me of how they stand on climate change eh? :oops:

I don't know how much of NASA's history you actually lived through but I can tell you that every piece of equipment NASA ever launched was provided to them by a corporate contractor for the lowest bid.
We explored the moon and found it was a cold useless rock not worth going back to considering the trip cost. We have made great use of satellites of several types including telescopes and GPS systems and communication satellites. But beyond that and a few deep space and Mars probes we have found that there are real limits to space exploration mostly due to the incredible distances involved and the unsuitability of the human body for long periods in zero gravity.
We need to turn what resources and technology we have left to the problems we face here on earth , population, species extinction, climate change, oil depletion/ energy supply etc. and stop fantasizing about escaping earth and beginning a star trek.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 20 May 2016, 10:42:56

vtsnowedin wrote: We need to turn what resources and technology we have left to the problems we face here on earth , population, species extinction, climate change, oil depletion/ energy supply etc. and stop fantasizing about escaping earth and beginning a star trek.


That smells a lot like learning how to self regulate. Watch out with those comments. There are doom hawks all over this site that will pounce on you for making this suggestion. I am still licking my wounds but my resolve remains intact
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 20 May 2016, 10:46:58

Ibon wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: We need to turn what resources and technology we have left to the problems we face here on earth , population, species extinction, climate change, oil depletion/ energy supply etc. and stop fantasizing about escaping earth and beginning a star trek.


That smells a lot like learning how to self regulate. Watch out with those comments. There are doom hawks all over this site that will pounce on you for making this suggestion. I am still licking my wounds but my resolve remains intact

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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 20 May 2016, 12:50:13

"We need to turn what resources and technology we have left to the problems we face here on earth , population, species extinction, climate change, oil depletion/ energy supply etc. and stop fantasizing about escaping earth and beginning a star trek"

I think just about everyone here (except JK and a very few others) would agree with this well worded sentiment by vt.

What people question is a blind faith that just letting GW take its course will solve all problems and leave a new Eden on earth.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 20 May 2016, 14:06:10

clif wrote:The privateers are still struggling to actually consistently launch rockets, something NASA did regularly in the 1960's, in low earth orbit at that. Returning to the Moon or beyond is out of their reach.


Seems like SpaceX is making rapid progress, though. I'm not saying that to back up KJ's belief in an Interstellar future. Just that people should resist the idea of painting the future in extremes. There will be a combination of movement towards Kurzweil's mythical singularity at the same time our biosphere is collapsing under our feet, confusing as that may be.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 20 May 2016, 17:30:10

"This is not a GOP vs Democrats issue. This is the Corporatists attempting to control BOTH parties, to give YOU no choice." Absolutely, Cid. The sad part is it was pretty effectively achieved for quite some time. That is why the corporations based in this country have been running amuck for quite some time. That is why we did not even consider changing our economy to be more friendly to the environment. That is why we have had climate summits come and go and the US keeps dragging its feet. But this is not a US thing, this was the world. We acted like no limits existed and we could grow our numbers and grow the Economy without brakes or restraint. Now, unfortunately we are all reluctantly coming to the conclusion that not much will be able to be saved once AGW gets through with us and the rest of the living planet.
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Re: "GOP = Most Dangerous Org. in History"--Chomsky

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 21 May 2016, 02:07:25

Again, you seem to be implying that we can change economic systems like clothes. Well - obviously - we cannot, we don't have a clean change of clothes, everything we have tried did not fit or feel as comfortable as the clothes we have.

If you think I'm wrong, then simply identify the country and the time period where something better than our current economy was tried or is being tried. Something that 325 million Americans can actually use, preferably. If it is a period or a place I don't know about despite a lifelong fascination with History, I'll come up to speed before I reply - I'm serious about this, and it's important. Because I do truly believe that when future humans look down upon a ruined Earth, they will be doing so from luxury condos in space habitats, and will be living in a Cybernetic and Capitalistic economic system.

Because currently, you are wasting all of our time with your whining.
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