[americandream]

After much engagement with the half baked liberalism of covert regionalists as well as the overt exceptionalism of incompetents who purport to be capitalists but shield a regionalist agenda, I am now convinced of the need for efficient and free markets all across the world. This is necessary to ensure the full access to modernity for all. Only then do we have a dogs chance of rationally addressing our future prospects as a species CLIMATE ISSUES INCLUDED.

The primitivist opportunism of the regionalists is certainly not the way, despite their pretensions at being the keepers of our planet or our ethnic entitlements. It is essential that modernity embrace all of humankind and that the markets function at optimal efficieny in that process.

The markets are objective and precise.

[efarmer]

This sounds like a wonderful experiment, I hope I can watch it from the moon and not be stuck down in the chaos it would create on earth. The markets are speculative, imprecise, and without any regulation are a pogo stick with a spike sticking up for when you come down too hard. I find the idea as unworkable as a planned economy with central controls, which is a pogo stick without a spring.

[americandream]

This sounds like a wonderful experiment, I hope I can watch it from the moon and not be stuck down in the chaos it would create on earth. The markets are speculative, imprecise, and without any regulation are a pogo stick with a spike sticking up for when you come down too hard. I find the idea as unworkable as a planned economy with central controls, which is a pogo stick without a spring.

The markets are precise to a point. Any other notions are borne of a lack of knowledge.

[americandream]

It is imperative that all obstacles to the efficient movement of flows are removed, that wealth is generated and that modernity is extended so as we have the global cultural base to attend to our issues with skill.

Running around yelling fire, letting incompetents once again use this as another opportunity to stir fear and grab advantages by the backdoor whilst the markets struggle to find the necessary equilibrium for flows to gather momentum, is not acceptable.

[ralfy]

Such a market eventually leads to free market capitalism. In fact, that's what happened in the first place.

The catch is fallout from increasing credit generated, peak oil, and environmental damage coupled with global warming.

[americandream]

Such a market eventually leads to free market capitalism. In fact, that's what happened in the first place.

The catch is fallout from increasing credit generated, peak oil, and environmental damage coupled with global warming.

Continued running of capitalism as it has been done to date for just the West (which runs counter to its globalising tendency and is inefficient) is hardly likely to endear the rest of the world to saving the planet nor will it save the planet were they all murdered off as the Cogs and Plantys of this world seem to masturbate over.

We will have to render the globalisation efficient quickly so as we can extract maximum value from it to fund an alternative.....or we all die shopping together.

[Hawkcreek]

Unrestrained capitalism ends up just like a game of Monopoly. Only one winner, and everyone else a loser.
Anyone who thinks we have anything like a "free" market now just doesn't want to see the truth.
We have a system designed to take from the poor and/or stupid, and give to the rich.
This is already being done on a global scale.

[americandream]

Unrestrained capitalism ends up just like a game of Monopoly. Only one winner, and everyone else a loser.
Anyone who thinks we have anything like a "free" market now just doesn't want to see the truth.
We have a system designed to take from the poor and/or stupid, and give to the rich.
This is already being done on a global scale.

Not really. The current setup runs on racial lines which is very inefficient. Open up the markets to the full 7 billion and the chances of rigging would not be as high given the larger human pool.

But capital does consolidate in the hands of the capitalist as he naturally gets the cream so on that score, if the worker wants to eat the cake and cream and save the trees, there is socialism.

[GHung]

americandream continues to be caught in the 20th century infinite growth loop. In short, he's stuck firmly in the bargaining stage, continuously insisting that, either humans aren't in an extreme overshoot condition relative to the carrying capacity of their environment, or that it doesn't matter. His belief that a so-called 'global free market' will change human behaviour in ways conducive to the specie's long-term survival is absurd at best.

We'll get a "free market", but it certainly won't be anything like what he's suggesting.

[americandream]

americandream continues to be caught in the 20th century infinite growth loop. In short, he's stuck firmly in the bargaining stage, continuously insisting that, either humans aren't in an extreme overshoot condition relative to the carrying capacity of their environment, or that it doesn't matter. His belief that a so-called 'global free market' will change human behaviour in ways conducive to the specie's long-term survival is absurd at best.

We'll get a "free market", but it certainly won't be anything like what he's suggesting.

Wrong. The structure of the markets force compliance in the process breaking down parochial barriers. Now the question you should be reinforcing is whether this is good for the planet, not whether the markets can be anything other than free as that is now firmly a global function and moving beyond the regional apartheid of yesteryear.

Are these Earth Firster concerns likely to resonate with the vast majority of the planet who until now have stood on the outside looking in on the regional fest. Most unlikely if one is realistic. Thus until we see clear evidence of resource buffers, we can reasonably assume that the shift from skewed to free markets will continue.

The free markets from a Marxist perspective offer the opportunity of raising consciousness which a fuller belly is more amenable to than an empty one. So for communists, being the realists that we are, any redeeming of the planets virtues can definitely come through a mans stomach if properly approached.

Obviously the third world does not have the luxury of indulging in doomerist fantasies being as it has been on the margins to date so we work with what we have and hope for the best.

[Pops]

"Efficient Market" is a theory. It says markets always incorporate all info so all prices are always exactly correct.
The "theory" was proved wrong and went out with Greenspan and the unregulated derivatives market meltdown in '08.

Markets can no more be free (unregulated) than can be any other facet of society— hence: law.

Says me anyway.

[americandream]

"Efficient Market" is a theory. It says markets always incorporate all info so all prices are always exactly correct.
The "theory" was proved wrong out with with Greenspan and the unregulated derivatives market meltdown in '08.

Markets can no more be free (unregulated) than can be any other facet of society— hence: law.

Says me anyway.

Its what I trade. I am trading these structures right now.

Market collapse will be accompanied by a disappearance of these structures as capital takes flight but for the moment, they are very much in play irrespective of what the volumes are.

[americandream]

"Efficient Market" is a theory. It says markets always incorporate all info so all prices are always exactly correct.
The "theory" was proved wrong out with with Greenspan and the unregulated derivatives market meltdown in '08.

Markets can no more be free (unregulated) than can be any other facet of society— hence: law.

Says me anyway.

Its what I trade. I am trading these structures right now.

Market collapse will be accompanied by a disappearance of these structures as capital takes flight but for the moment, they are very much in play irrespective of what the volumes are.

[Pops]

Its what I trade. I am trading these structures right now.

The theory is that efficient markets always incorporate all info, if that is true then what is it you trade?

[Pops]

I find the idea as unworkable as a planned economy with central controls, which is a pogo stick without a spring.

ef, you are my metaphorical hero!

I rate that an ef-4 metaphor!

[GHung]

americandream wrote: "Thus until we see clear evidence of resource buffers, we can reasonably assume that the shift from skewed to free markets will continue.

Surely you jest. What would you define as "clear evidence"? Massive migrations out of resource-constrained areas? Water and power rationing in the largest city in the western hemisphere? Ongoing drought in America's largest fruit and vegetable region? Declining fish populations worldwide? Millions of forest acres burning every year? Ore concentrations a fraction of what they were just a few decades ago? Mass inability to control our waste streams?.....

.....and; "Market collapse will be accompanied by a disappearance of these structures as capital takes flight but for the moment, they are very much in play irrespective of what the volumes are.

"In play" largely due to mass injections of faux capital/credit into markets suffering from resource constraints and economies inability to tolerate any semblance of the price discovery you seem to be touting as necessary. The 'free market' that you want to promote is the snake that has already eaten its tail. Central banks' hold on things is tenuous at best, and any return to what you believe will be a free market will be chaotic and self-terminating.

"Free market" will be me, trading beans to the guy down the road for some of his potatoes.

[Hawkcreek]

"Free market" will be me, trading beans to the guy down the road for some of his potatoes.

Don't forget - 50% of both the beans and potatoes go to the King - for protection, of course.

[americandream]

"Free market" will be me, trading beans to the guy down the road for some of his potatoes.

Don't forget - 50% of both the beans and potatoes go to the King - for protection, of course.

Local markets are always the springboard to regional and then global markets. To suggest that localism can somehow operate in isolation to these forces even whilst there is nothing to show that globalisation is running out of steam other than wildly irrelevant reinterpretations of Darwinian economics is sheer fantasy.

[americandream]

Its what I trade. I am trading these structures right now.

The theory is that efficient markets always incorporate all info, if that is true then what is it you trade?

Price......and I am always right.

[ralfy]

Continued running of capitalism as it has been done to date for just the West (which runs counter to its globalising tendency and is inefficient) is hardly likely to endear the rest of the world to saving the planet nor will it save the planet were they all murdered off as the Cogs and Plantys of this world seem to masturbate over.

We will have to render the globalisation efficient quickly so as we can extract maximum value from it to fund an alternative.....or we all die shopping together.

What is this value, and what is the alternative?