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THE NATO Thread Pt. 2

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 18:24:45

claman wrote:Come on Sixstrings, we are all with you, just like you are with us.
Denmarks 27 new F-35's will help keep the South Baltics clean of unwanted ships so you don't have to worry about being attacked from the back


Are you Danish? Am I waving the American flag too much? :lol: I like Denmark, I wish we had Denmark's domestic policies.

I was speaking from an American perspective, about the importance of allies and that this $580 billion military budget we have to fund, actually really does do some good in the world.

And that our defense and security is greatly enhanced by having allies (as is Denmark's, if you're Danish) -- if most of the world is sticking together, then we can all be safe, and it really is the best future.

Anti establishment is so popular now, but really, the democratic capitalist global order breaking up would mean A LOT *more* WAR and it would be the chaotic messy war of regional powers all slugging it out and then international trade gets ruined too, and economic depression, all our economies would go to crap (and OUR money and assets, as individuals in the West).

Chaos isn't good. A lot of people are voting for it lately, but it's concerning.. just because things are a bit bad doesn't mean it's a good idea to tear everything down.. then there's nothing at all.

And now, hypersonic missile swarms are the new big thing -- that kind of chaotic future WITHOUT a benevolent global order alliance around anymore wouldn't be good, from any standpoint. Or, a global order to prevent nuclear proliferation and every random dictator and idiot having NUKE armed hypersonic missile swarms.

Establishment ain't so bad, maybe. When the Roman Empire establishment fell, centuries of DARK AGES ensued.

Russia may like a chaotic world that's breaking up, simply because they just want to claw up in the world a bit and they don't care so much about chaos, they could take advantage of chaos, but it would be bad for the WORLD as a whole.

Europe and the US and even China have to be concerned with stability and peace, our interest in the West is NOT in "shaking it all up" and crashing it. That's a RISING power's interest, that's got nothing to lose.

As far as global new world orders go -- democratic capitalist, with democracy and human rights values.. that's really the best, if there must be a "world order" then at least it's that.

In a place like Poland, and elsewhere in east europe, a lot of the people really do CARE about democracy and democratic principles.. because they still have a memory of the inverse, the USSR and Warsaw Pact. Some of these east euros are the best defenders of democracy. They know what it's like, without it.

So that is a component too, there REALLY IS that "democratic values" part of "democratic capitalism." It's NOT all BS. A far right wing fascist government will do things like suppress free speech and the media, and the right to protest, and they shut down opposition, and it's an iron curtain overall and without freedom then you don't even have much innovation anymore.

These things matter. They're values, WESTERN values, and it's the SAME in Denmark as in Canada, Australia, Poland, Japan and South Korea.

We're all allies for a reason -- we're the democracies of the world.

About the F-35 -- that's a tangible benefit of alliance, and it benefits the US too that the allies shared in the cost and development. Together, we can all do more, versus being divided.

For a country like the UK, or Denmark -- 27 F-35's is actually a heck of an air force.

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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 18:34:23

Sixstrings wrote:Chaos isn't good. A lot of people are voting for it lately, but it's concerning.. just because things are a bit bad doesn't mean it's a good idea to tear everything down.. then there's nothing at all.


That is the one thing you have written lately that I completely agree with.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby claman » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 19:47:19

Sixstrings, It may surprise you that I am actually for a strong Russia. Russia is the worlds biggest country with huge reserves of whatever commodity you want. This huge country stretching from Kaliningrad to the most eastern point of Asia is held together through centuries by a special Russian will and commitment.
If Russia is not strong and committed to this special task, it will all fall apart and the eastern part will be chinese, the middle part will be muslim and god knows what will happen to the rest.
To rule a country like that it takes great diplomacy and an iron fist in a scale that europeans couldn't dream of.
Russia is really dominating it's environment, but it also has the needs of the more refined western european influx. Russia is not the east, but it's not really the west either.
I don't think we in europe should try to influence Russia too much, but on the other hand give what ever we can.
Seen from a west European point of view, Russia is a big uncontrollable bear that we would like not to be there. But if it wasn't there, the safety and culturel continuity that we have seen in Europe ever since he russians freed themselves from the mongol rulers might not have happened. Russia is a barrier towards eastern totalitarians, and has a result a bit of totalitarians in them selves. But basically they are western.
Make russia a part of Europe, but for gods sake not too much, because then we will lose Sibiria and by that some of the greatest reserves in the world
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby sparky » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 19:52:49

.
wars are not reasoned things , countries fall into them , with nobody really wanting to .
a common fallacy is that they can be controlled ,
when all historical evidence point out to that they are not controllable

on the present tense situation with Russia ,the Neocons move in Georgia and Ukraine can only be seen as hostile

NATO is a defensive alliance acting pretty much like a relentless steamroller waving weapons a lot .
there is NO terminal limit to its enlargement , it's like an anaconda swallowing every bitty country it can get
I suppose Nato is willing to defend from Russia aggression as far as the Urals and central asia
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby claman » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 20:15:59

Sparky:"I suppose Nato is willing to defend from Russia aggression as far as the Urals and central asia"
I understand your comment ,except for the final bit. Please explain..
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 20:41:23

Just to note, some of my posts are too US-centric in viewpoint.

NATO is, of course, an international organization of the trans-atlantic allies.

NATO and Europe and UK and USA are coming together -- if Europe were not, then in my view the US ought to STILL be there for Poland and east Europe. But Europe has come together.. certainly the UK and Danish and Canadians have been doing Baltics patrols, too.

This is all DETERRENCE, patrols and simply doing training exercises within NATO territory, so that there is NOT ever a "little green men hybrid war" in Scandinavia.

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Honouring ceremony for NATO military personnel, NATO Summit in Warsaw, 08 JUL 2016
https://youtu.be/qjcqNL0oxTM?t=94


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Scenes from Warsaw ahead of the NATO Summit, 8-9 July 2016
https://youtu.be/eKiIuXjzahg
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby claman » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 20:45:54

Sixtrings :"Chaos isn't good. A lot of people are voting for it lately, but it's concerning.. just because things are a bit bad doesn't mean it's a good idea to tear everything down.. then there's nothing at all. "
Trump is not Chaos, he is just simplifying problems. Real chaos is when our energi system breaks down, when "just in time" stops working. That will be chaos
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby claman » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 20:51:19

And Sixstrings, stopp the adds for the miitary, it makes you less credible.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby sparky » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 20:51:59

.
Nato is on record , as recently as yesterday , to offer membership to Georgia , Ukraine ,
there is moves toward Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan to make them associated members .

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49111.htm
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49598.htm

for the record both those countries are far , very far from being picture perfect democracies

the really sensitive issue is Belarus .
so far it is in the not to tender hands of Mr Lukashenko , a strongman style leader of the wooden variety
If ,When , there is a change ,
There will be attempt overt and covert to pries Belarus from its strong military alliance with Russia
any move by Nato toward Minsk ,at the urging of the Poles , Balts and British
would be war , not much doubt about that.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby claman » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 21:10:31

Sparky, I agree that Nato shouldn't touch Belarus, but on the other hand I haven't heard any rumors that they are even trying.
As I see it , it's all about letting Russia have Crimea and east Ukrania, and then get back to BAU as fast as posible. It's not popular in the west,but it's best for every body in the end.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby claman » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 21:22:30

It's late - sleep tight.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 10 Jul 2016, 04:02:11

vtsnowedin wrote:That is the one thing you have written lately that I completely agree with.


Things are getting crazy lately. That makes me lean establishment.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 10 Jul 2016, 07:45:19

Sixstrings wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:That is the one thing you have written lately that I completely agree with.


Things are getting crazy lately. That makes me lean establishment.


I don't understand this point of view, the people in charge screwed things up so badly that chaos is now possible and your reaction is to loyally seek their guidance?
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 10 Jul 2016, 13:41:33

Tanada wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:That is the one thing you have written lately that I completely agree with.


Things are getting crazy lately. That makes me lean establishment.


I don't understand this point of view, the people in charge screwed things up so badly that chaos is now possible and your reaction is to loyally seek their guidance?

We have problems that need solutions. Chaos is seldom a successful solution. Some more moderate and effective change that does not risk chaos or anarchy is what is needed.
And as always achieving utopia by removing me and my family from the population is not an acceptable or moderate solution. :)
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby sparky » Sun 10 Jul 2016, 22:30:43

.
After the singing choir of the final Warsaw communique , mentioning Russia as the bad guy more than any other ,
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/offic ... 133169.htm

it's always good to take a step back and trying other angles .

Certainly at the basic level , Russophobia is akin to Hydrophobia .
the Poles have it , so do the Balts .

For Nato ,it is useful as a profile raising exercise ,
else it might find itself downgraded on the pecking order of things which matter

For the Neocons , they are the perfect target , white , Christians and far away
also ,most important Neocons are Jews ,Putin forced the mostly Jewish oligarchs to disgorge some of their pillaging .
can't have that ,it's our money ,honestly stolen .

There is some voices mentioning another motive
https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/10/e ... bivalence/
http://atimes.com/2016/07/with-eye-on-b ... es-russia/

Keeping Europe military weak ,afraid and sheltering under the benevolent US military wing would be the real reason
the dollar is basically a protection tax on the rest of the world .
It pay for the Pentagon ,which ensure world trade is flowing smoothly
An united Europe would be a threat to the dollar , a strong Europe would have its own army .
so far Britain , the US saboteur of European project , has been very active sabotaging any European defense .
the Eurocorps and other existing structure are partial , disorganized and concern only some members
Brexit did throw the cat among the pigeon ,now their could be some progress

the thing which got me thinking was the transfer of the European missile shield to Nato control
including the cost of its upgrade !? , the European refusal to set up a Nato black sea fleet
Washington passing the bowl for Afghanistan , as futile a deployment as ever was
and several interventions pushing for a closer EU Nato military cooperation
I know they always say that but this had a sightly different tone to it .
the French and Germans were ( weakly ) holding back on the holy war concept .
it seems the private talks were less unanimous that portrayed in the Final communique
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 01:17:43

vtsnowedin wrote:
Tanada wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:That is the one thing you have written lately that I completely agree with.


Things are getting crazy lately. That makes me lean establishment.


I don't understand this point of view, the people in charge screwed things up so badly that chaos is now possible and your reaction is to loyally seek their guidance?

We have problems that need solutions. Chaos is seldom a successful solution. Some more moderate and effective change that does not risk chaos or anarchy is what is needed.
And as always achieving utopia by removing me and my family from the population is not an acceptable or moderate solution. :)


EDIT: rephrase, I don't need to write so much.. I agree with vts.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 05:33:15

EDIT: Delete, I'm posting too much.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 10:25:27

The whole premise of this thread is ludicrous in any case. NATO was founded after WW2 by the US and a group of European democracies for the express purpose of countering the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. It matters not that the USSR has transformed itself from the preeminent and mostly successful group of Marxist regimes into an informal grouping of oligarchies, the threat remains the same, and NATO persists.

The European Union cannot defend itself against the oligarchs without NATO. The USA needs NATO to credibly restrain Russia and her satellite nations. "Preparing for war with Russia" has been standard NATO doctrine since 1949.
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 18:45:58

KaiserJeep wrote:The whole premise of this thread is ludicrous in any case. NATO was founded after WW2 by the US and a group of European democracies for the express purpose of countering the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. It matters not that the USSR has transformed itself from the preeminent and mostly successful group of Marxist regimes into an informal grouping of oligarchies, the threat remains the same, and NATO persists.

The European Union cannot defend itself against the oligarchs without NATO. The USA needs NATO to credibly restrain Russia and her satellite nations. "Preparing for war with Russia" has been standard NATO doctrine since 1949.

In 1945 we could as the only nuclear power forced Russia to it's knees and taken control of the whole world but we chose not to because we and especially our other allies were very weary of war and our resources were collectively depleted.
So we let them be, after all they had been on our side in WW2, and set up defense systems to not let them over run us or anybody else big or small on our side.
They turned out to be much more interested in conquering us then we were of them and we ended up fighting them in Korea and Vietnam.
I wonder if there was a strategy that would have kept them at bay with a lot less American lives lost?
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Re: NATO preparing for war on Russia

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 20:28:26

Its perfectly fine to prepare for war, even when you have no intention of engaging a powerful enemy in a war of conquest.

The trick is making sure, in the process, that you don't accidentally convince the enemy that you are attacking or about to attack.

Because again, the problem is, Russia stands no chance against us conventionally; their one and only possible response to NATO beginning an attack on them is a full launch and then hope the damage is sufficient to make sustained occupation of Russia impossible after all the nukes have fallen.

Our perception of NATO's intent is irrelevant. Russia's perception of NATO's intent is that it exists to invade and conquer Russia. It is irrelevant that they are incorrect.

Saying they are delusional will not stop them from launching their strategic counterattack if they believe NATO is invading.

Fortunately, it appears the folks actually running NATO understand this and have been making some additional efforts to insure that Russia understands that we are both strong, and NOT CURRENTLY ATTACKING RUSSIA.
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