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The Natives Are Getting Restless

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Fishman » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 14:45:29

So Preston, you're down on pstarr's rants?
The post was "The Native's are getting restless" Do I think we'll have 2.50 gas, no way. Do I love the thrashings about by the left as gas prices go up, sure. They pounded Bush about gas prices, though there was little he could do, though Obama may not have much to do about gas prices, his popularity is as directly tied as Bush's was. Turn about is a bitch ain't it? Pstarr, I'm confused, I thought you were getting what you wanted, less carbon, less use of petroleum. Darn shame it comes at the price of a wrecked economy and a crumbling presidency.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 16:30:39

Its a bitter pill for the left to swallow really. They know increased gasoline prices are *the* answer to encouraging and directing the economy towards the types of activities that they would prefer. [public transport, dense village/city community, walkable, multi-family construction, etc] They can't stand that it has happened as a result of the real cost of the product, as opposed to simply heavy taxation of gasoline. This means, that professionals, sitting out in the suburbs make no adjustments or very slight ones, and don't move, and don't become tied to the liberal preferred design; while the poor are getting really gouged hard on transportation costs because all that money that was supposed to be there for rail and busses and subsidies, isn't there.

What's worse, is now that the price of gas is "high"; how can lefties manage to turn around and sell "we need a $3/gallon tax on transportation fuel"? It'd be open revolt from their base, and irritated "told ya so" from their opposition.

Its the answer that has gutted the solution.

Now, if the price were to rise so high as to flat price out most of the poor, clearing the road for me and my 18 yr old pickup (lol), then the left could come back to the high fuel tax pitch, but I think at that point it would be to late to expect it to generate enough revenue to accomplish the public transportation objectives of the left.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby ritter » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 16:44:57

Nice post, Agent. Sums it all up pretty nicely and is exactly why we are fukt.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 17:09:37

Um, I didn't even quote you. I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm stating my particular opinion about gas prices in the context of a reference to the preferences of certain politicians.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 19:41:47

pstarr wrote:
AgentR11 wrote:Um, I didn't even quote you. I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm stating my particular opinion about gas prices in the context of a reference to the preferences of certain politicians.
So you have a particular politician in mind? One who said higher gasoline prices are good for the poor?

What, you think your favorite leftist leader with his anti-pipeline, anti-drilling, green (without proven viability) agenda will be GOOD for gas prices?

Give us all a break. The left wing, which pretends to be FOR the poor, is the poor's worst enemy -- via inflationary redistribution programs that don't work, and the constant striving to grow government in general -- which doesn't work.

Your turn. Now you can attack me for being "mean", etc. Actually, I'm a libertarian who primarily just wants to be left alone -- but that can't happen because the likes of YOU knows what is best for all of us. :razz:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 20:39:06

pstarr wrote:
AgentR11 wrote:Um, I didn't even quote you. I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm stating my particular opinion about gas prices in the context of a reference to the preferences of certain politicians.
So you have a particular politician in mind? One who said higher gasoline prices are good for the poor?


I never used the phrase "good for the poor". My reading of the issue is that a high gas price, which is high mostly as a result of taxes, would have its negative impacts offset by increased spending of those taxes in urban and poor areas for things such as mass transit. As it is, the high price is the result of the product itself becoming much more expensive; thus any taxes collected in addition to that price would be insufficient to offset the harm to the poor; PLUS, high cost and high tax would provoke a very strong negative reaction all through the electorate, leading to instant defeat for a large number of lefty pols.

As to politicians, I believe that the current president in fact wants the price of gas to be high; he just wishes it were high as a result of tax policy, not resource constraint.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby davmoo » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 21:22:34

If I actually thought that governments would use increased gasoline taxes in a wise way, I might be for them. If I actually thought that carbon trading would help the environment instead of filling Goldman Sachs coffers, I might be for them. Unless someone comes along as a leader, real soon, who is not just a "yes we can" mouthpiece for corporations and special interest groups, and I am talking about all current world leaders, I truly beleive we, as the plebs of the world are on our own.All we can do is try and build strong families, neighbourhoods, communities. Take care of your situation as best you can, try to prepare for tough times as best you can and live everyday as
enjoyably as you can.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby careinke » Thu 22 Mar 2012, 22:30:26

Democrats miss their mothers and call on the Government to replace them, Republicans miss their fathers and want the government to replace them, and Libertarians want everyone to be an adult and want the government to mind its own business.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 23 Mar 2012, 06:36:07

careinke wrote:Democrats miss their mothers and call on the Government to replace them, Republicans miss their fathers and want the government to replace them, and Libertarians want everyone to be an adult and want the government to mind its own business.


Plus a zillion!

Just leave us alone and let the crybabies grow up, nobody can work hard enough to support all the freeloaders.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 23 Mar 2012, 08:04:54

I'll add a few to the zillion.

I would like to take a wee bit of exception to the 'freeloader' part. Not that I like freeloaders.

We live in a very efficient society, fueled by cheap oil we live in a land of plenty. We SHOULD have been able to relax a little, cut back signifigantly on our work week, gone fishing and sailing a lot more.

As it is we don't do that. We have a personal NEED to work, to feel productive.

Thus we end up creating a consumer society, so that we have a 'job' and 'full employment.' But what is the VALUE of our labor?

As long as we are busy that is enough, we don't measure whether or not what we are doing is of an real meaning. Self included for far too long.

As a result we have burned through our precious fossil fuels at an alarming rate merely to enjoy the arcade environment.

Collectively we are like drunken sailors on a three day pass with 3 months of back pay in our pocket.

Now we are groaning our way to wakefulness. As we come to we are feeling the first blush of what is likely to be a first class hangover, and where did I leave my wallet anyway. And who is responsible for this mess? Bastards!
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 23 Mar 2012, 13:38:00

Haven't read through this whole thread but I have to chime in with Pstarr that what Newfie wrote was really accurate.

Something else comes to mind. We are all small self contained tyrants wielding these digital tools where any and all information is available at the punch of a keypad. This has replaced something of real value that is archetypal and goes back to our village tribal roots; Mentors, sages, shamans, teachers, gurus, professors, academics, priests.

I look back at the mentors and teachers of my youth who I looked toward with inspiration be they naturalists or comedians . I sense we are all so self contained that we no longer honor the wisdom of elders.

I think we suffer from a relativism that is a direct result of so much information that is no longer filtered through a kind of organic due diligence that vetted and helped define the wisdom of generations embodied in individuals who were our mentors.

We have disenfranchised our sages.

I enjoy reading someone like John Michael Greer and can identify him for example of fulfilling the role somewhat of mentor for a subculture of folks wanting to adapt to the 21st century realities. How great that he has a venue that can reach so many. And yet I am left with a sense that he is just another relative voice out there in the cyber world. There is no real synthesis that separates the noise from substance.

Our scientists, priests and academics all get homogenized with the mediocre background noise of the dumbed down bulk of the stupid masses.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 23 Mar 2012, 18:04:22

Back in the 60's Marshall McLuhan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_McLuhan) coined the phases "The Global Village" and "The Medium is the Message." He thought that as we had more and more information we would all find common ties and become a more unified world. We would share heroes and villains.

Unfortunately he was wrong. Our prehistory is too strong. No matter the tool we are given we tend to turn it to our primitive uses. Thus radio and TV and all the other mediums out there (Twitter, and Twatter and whatever) end up NARROWING our perspective.

Now Google is starting to tailor our search messages so that we see first that stuff we are personally most interested in.

There is a very real danger here in that each sub-group, sect, just gets reinforcing messages and actually believes that their own message is the predominant view.

The problem is that, even though I am aware of this phenomenon, I am at it's mercy. I no longer have TV and rarely listen to the radio as I walk to work. Thus my only news source is through the internet, which tends to be pretty biased because I tend to talk to like minded folks only.

Tis a dismal prospect that forebodes civil war, if we last that long.
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I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Revi » Mon 26 Mar 2012, 09:18:12

I think the natives are still relatively passive, but they could get stirred up into a frenzy if they wake up a little from their drug induced stupor. The cost of gas and oil will get them riled. A lot of them have humungous gas guzzling trucks, but soon it will get expensive to drive even fuel efficient small cars. We are talking about the end of a lifestyle that has been around for almost a hundred years. People aren't going to let it go without a fight.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby stephankrasner » Tue 27 Mar 2012, 01:25:22

OP: The real question over the next few years is: Can we keep what's left of our democratic system without giving our power for oil? The price of a gallon of gas and a plate of food is still nothing compared with other countries and the American people are still looking for easy answers (speculators, drill baby drill) to a problem that most people know is difficult. Like Dave Emory says, "easy answers lead to final solutions". I find myself defending the simple principle of supply and demand on a daily basis now. Nobody wants to hear it.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 27 Mar 2012, 10:21:23

Newfie wrote:The problem is that, even though I am aware of this phenomenon, I am at it's mercy. I no longer have TV and rarely listen to the radio as I walk to work. Thus my only news source is through the internet, which tends to be pretty biased because I tend to talk to like minded folks only.


Its why I spend time here as often as I do; most of the posters here are lefty or left leaning, but they aren't stupid lefties, and most aren't too dedicated to reading from the script of the day; so you have a chance to read fully formed ideas that honestly exist in the writers' heads. I don't have to agree with them, to appreciate thinking about them.

Tis a dismal prospect that forebodes civil war, if we last that long.


I worry about this sort of thing... belief in a prospect can bring it into reality, and more than a few on both sides are believing in the prospect at the moment. Each phrases it differently of course; and maybe that disharmony will in the end interfere with things trying to fly apart and we'll just muddle along, such is my hope. We are much too violent and well armed as a people to think that a civil war will result in anything other than most dead and everything burned to the ground.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 27 Mar 2012, 13:22:56

We are much too violent and well armed as a people to think that a civil war will result in anything other than most dead and everything burned to the ground


I guess my idea is that it will be the cities where the civil war erupts. Not so much an organized engagement but more as the normal authorities pulling back from areas where the remaining occupants slug it out with each other and burn their neighborhoods. Then they will raid into the surrounding areas.

I view gangs as shadow governments.
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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 08 May 2017, 02:23:12

Newfie wrote:
We are much too violent and well armed as a people to think that a civil war will result in anything other than most dead and everything burned to the ground


I guess my idea is that it will be the cities where the civil war erupts. Not so much an organized engagement but more as the normal authorities pulling back from areas where the remaining occupants slug it out with each other and burn their neighborhoods. Then they will raid into the surrounding areas.

I view gangs as shadow governments.


This makes me wonder if, once the hot summer season arrives, we will see riots like those that tore up Baltimore and Saint Louis during President Obama's second term this year?

Those anti-police riots were aided and abbetted by the same kind of city leadership we have recently seen exposed in Berkley California, making me wonder just how widespread this instabillity is? No culture can survive long without some form of control over these riot events. Targeting Police is particularly effective in destabilising things if those police do not get government and citizen support as a result.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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