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THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby Micki » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 00:40:20

Sorry, I just noticed the link for Fact file on GM crops was left out.
This is not my opinion as I am no expert on GM. It comes from here; http://www.grassrootsnetroots.org/artic ... _17283.cfm
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby outcast » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 03:23:19

I'm not either, which is why I think we need to be careful with our sources.
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby Micki » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 11:04:21

pablonite wrote:outcast, consider the following hypothetical scenario.. Say you are a small 5th generation farmer but haven't got around to buying your seeds from Monsanto or any of the other GM seed producers yet because you seem to be doing just fine without them, however your neighbour did. One day you get a call from a Monsanto lawyer claiming that YOU are using their patented "round up ready" seed and they can prove it...he advises you to seek legal advice immediately. --snip-- It's not so much drinking the kool-aid, it's getting off the kool-aid we've all been drinking for too long!

I never quite understood the legality of this. What is the actual crime? i.e. if I am caught watching a pirate copied movie I doubt I'll get sentenced. I might get unlucky if I am caught copying or selling, not using. Can't the the farmer even argue that they have just purchased the seeds from somewhere else? i.e. in that case fees to monsanto might have been paid, it just have been paid by the original purchaser?
I can think of a dozen variations or reasons why a farmer shouldn't be guilty just because it has been discovered that he had some monsanto seeds that license hadn't been paid for.

The other thing I am missing is a proper list of brands&products that are based on Monsanto seeds or other products from Monsanto. My preference would be for marketing of products as being non-monsanto as that would allow easy identification in the shop, but as this isn't likely, a comprehensive list of what to avoid that I try to memorize would do for a start.
Anyone come across a good site for this kind of info?
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby rangerone314 » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 11:19:12

Micki wrote:Article in worldnetdaily link
House Resolution 875, or the Food Safety Modernization Act of 2009, was introduced by Rosa DeLauro, D-Conn., in February. DeLauro's husband, Stanley Greenburg, conducts research for Monsanto – the world's leading producer of herbicides and genetically engineered seed.
DeLauro's act has 39 co-sponsors and was referred to the House Agriculture Committee on Feb. 4. It calls for the creation of a Food Safety Administration to allow the government to regulate food production at all levels – and even mandates property seizure, fines of up to $1 million per offense and criminal prosecution for producers, manufacturers and distributors who fail to comply with regulations

Meanwhile thai farmers are trying to fight the implementation of the Beast system that prohibits them from using traditional plants and herbs as alternative to chemical pesticides.
Prohibited plants include: neem, citronella grass, tumeric, ginger, Chinese ginger, African marigold, Siam weed or bitter bush, tea seed cake, chilli, Chinese celery, ringworn bush, glory lily and stemona.
link

Fact file on GM crops;
- the US alone plants over 50% of the world's GM crops
- the area of GM crops being grown has actually fallen in Europe every year since 2005
- none of the GM crops on the market are modified for increased yield potential *some studies show GM crops reduce yield *disease-tolerant GM crops are practically non-existent

There is still hope that the implementation of the beast system can be fought as long as farmers can't get tricked into thinking they will be more profitable with GM crops EDITED: Link to Fact File: http://www.grassrootsnetroots.org/artic ... _17283.cfm


With corporate rule by KBR, Exxon & Monsanto, I am sort of feeling that we are more like the Ferengi Alliance in Star Trek, and Europe is more like the Federation. I'd love to know why Anti-Trust enforcement is dead in this country..
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 11:51:39

Here is what I have about Monsanto and Texas cotton farmers. It is slightly different than I heard and repeated, but not much. There is no Texas law.

This cotton farmer has to buy a specific Monsanto seed as it gives slightly higher yield. If they did not use this seed, they would be at risk of going out of business as they would not be competitive. If you use this type of Monsanto seed, the EPA requires that you plant "refuges" (basically, borders of GMO seed) and submit to inspections to ensure that this is being done.

Here is the letter sent to farmers stating this: link

You can see what defines "refuge" planting here: link

edited for slight grammar, caps usage.
Last edited by Jotapay on Thu 19 Mar 2009, 13:08:27, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 12:31:52

I believe I know what this is about. It is about food inspections and chain of custody.. I know the following is kind of technical and boring and folks would rather rant bout conspiracies but hey. I'll give it a shot. Maybe someone will pick up on

The need for the practice began in the organic food industry as a way of recording, certifying, and tracking food stuffs--produce and meat and especially ingredients destined for inclusion in organic labeled processed products--to ensure truth in labeling.

Chain of custody adds a burden to the producer in that they must label foods in the field so that, for instance, a box of carrots that ends up in a bag of Cascadian Farms Frozen Organic Mixed Vegetables labeled organic can be tracked to an organic farmer and proven organic.

So chain of custody laws were implemented to protect the organic label, so that sleazy farmers could not sell chemical produce for an organic premium. It added a cost all along the distribution, processing, manufacturing path that is finally absorbed by the consumer with higher prices for organic.

I suspect that the spinach and e-coli outbreaks have finally forced the US to implement similar tracking systems for conventional. Not a bad idea. Thanks to the visionaries within the organic industry, the tools (infield scanning etc. tracking software/hardware systems) are now affordable to all but the smallest organic producers. And guess what? They get exemptions.

I worked in the natural and organic food industry for years. Organic visionaries have revolutionized food production is the US by introducing a level of information management on an industrial scale that complements and enhances age old traditional practices, protects soil and food, but also allows farmers to feed billions.

However the natural food industry (not the organic component) is full of nannies, hysterics, scammers, and the ignorant who know nothing about food production, chemistry, food safety, etc. They are as paranoid as anything on the right. Kind of mirror images.

I doubt there is anything in these bills that would allow Monsanto into your bedrooms. Or force farmers to use gmo seeds. Nevertheless Monsanto (and Cargill, General Foods, et.al.) evil bastards that they are, will try to game any law and advantage they have to further promulgate the 'green revolution'---a proxy for modern feudal servitude.
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby Jotapay » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 13:10:39

Shannymara wrote:Thanks for the update, Jotapay. I think these issues about GM seed and agricultural policy in general are terribly important, so it's important to have accurate information about them.


No sweat. Accuracy is important. When I heard "cotton farmer has to use Monsanto seed" I assumed something which didn't turn out to be true. It's not a law, but a market effect.
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby outcast » Thu 19 Mar 2009, 23:14:09

This cotton farmer has to buy a specific Monsanto seed as it gives slightly higher yield. If they did not use this seed, they would be at risk of going out of business as they would not be competitive.



So it's just capitalism. Case closed, no conspiracy.
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby Jotapay » Fri 20 Mar 2009, 06:50:29

outcast wrote:
This cotton farmer has to buy a specific Monsanto seed as it gives slightly higher yield. If they did not use this seed, they would be at risk of going out of business as they would not be competitive.
So it's just capitalism. Case closed, no conspiracy.

Partially right. Capitalism with EPA favoritism of specific corporations, as well as regulation allowing said corporation to supervise private businesses and potentially put them out of business. I never said "conspiracy".
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby rangerone314 » Fri 20 Mar 2009, 08:16:53

Jotapay wrote:
outcast wrote:
This cotton farmer has to buy a specific Monsanto seed as it gives slightly higher yield. If they did not use this seed, they would be at risk of going out of business as they would not be competitive.
So it's just capitalism. Case closed, no conspiracy.
Partially right. Capitalism with EPA favoritism of specific corporations, as well as regulation allowing said corporation to supervise private businesses and potentially put them out of business. I never said "conspiracy".

Big business sure does act a lot like big government... their legal departments write laws, and then get their bought-and-paid for Congressmen to rubber stamp the legislation, most likely without even reading it. Don't need a conspiracy if the corps acting in their own interests do just as much damage... If I get killed by a bomb it doesn't matter if I was intentionally targeted or was collateral damage... I'm still dead.
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby pablonite » Fri 20 Mar 2009, 10:56:58

pstarr wrote:Nevertheless Monsanto (and Cargill, General Foods, et.al.) evil bastards that they are, will try to game any law and advantage they have to further promulgate the 'green revolution'---a proxy for modern feudal servitude
.
There are people who work for these corporations, good people who are doing good things, holding down a good job and being a good provider. They would take exception to what you said :) Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Marxism...whatever 'ISM' you live in has one goal, the concentration of wealth of power. An alien intelligence visiting planet earth and observing our civilizationISM would immediately observe the similiarities of nations , not the differences.

Food, water and shelter. The ISM has almost complete control of these now, which is why the small farmer has ALWAYS been a thorn in the side of the ISM's. The constitutional republic is now a democracy and black is the new green, and of course slavery is freedom :shock: I would guess %99.9 of the American population is incapable of surviving without the state, and that my friends is COMPLETE control. Good luck!
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Re: Monsanto bills set to destroy organic farming

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 20 Mar 2009, 11:02:11

pablonite wrote:There are people who work for these corporations, good people who are doing good things, holding down a good job and being a good provider. They would take exception to what you said :) Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Marxism...whatever 'ISM' you live in has one goal, the concentration of wealth of power. An alien intelligence visiting planet earth and observing our civilizationISM would immediately observe the similiarities of nations , not the differences.

Food, water and shelter. The ISM has almost complete control of these now, which is why the small farmer has ALWAYS been a thorn in the side of the ISM's. The constitutional republic is now a democracy and black is the new green, and of course slavery is freedom :shock: I would guess %99.9 of the American population is incapable of surviving without the state, and that my friends is COMPLETE control. Good luck!

Did you read more then the last line of my explanation?
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Corn Wars

Unread postby Pops » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 10:23:47

Here is a pretty good article about ag. history, corporatocracy, world domination, etc.

Think about that: The U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI now contend, in effect, that the theft of genetically modified corn technology is as credible a threat to national security as the spread to nation-states of the technology necessary to deliver and detonate nuclear warheads. Disturbingly, they may be right. As the global population continues to climb and climate change makes arable soil and water for irrigation ever more scarce, the world’s next superpower will be determined not just by which country has the most military might but also, and more importantly, by its mastery of the technology required to produce large quantities of food.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1224 ... picks=true
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby kanon » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:13:43

Don't you think this is a propaganda piece? i.e. Monsanto's GMO corn is so wonderful that Chinese secret agents steal seeds as part of a diabolical plot to feed the billions without paying their just tribute. But forget the royalties, it is the magical seeds that are promoted here, and the myth of industrial agriculture. We must have "mastery of the technology required to produce large quantities of food."

Meanwhile, on my bus ride up IH-35 in central Texas, I personally saw hundreds, perhaps thousands, of acres of GMO corn that died in the field. Acres that I doubt will be counted in the bu/acre statistics. Perhaps the Chinese agents should also be stealing the secret technology of crop insurance subsidies.
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby augjohnson » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:52:05

As the global population continues to climb and climate change makes arable soil and water for irrigation ever more scarce, the world’s next superpower will be determined not just by which country has the most military might but also, and more importantly, by its mastery of the technology required to produce large quantities of food.


In just one sentence, they manage to show ignorance of a major contradiction; the reason that GMO corn has the higher yields isn't that it is intrinsically higher yielding but that it can take advantage of more inputs of nutrients and water which will then give higher yields. In third world countries today, the GMO Corn is failing when the farmers can't afford to provide the vastly increased nutrients and water that are required. GMO Corn isn't going to deal well with the consequences of Climate Change.
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:59:21

kanon: "Don't you think this is a propaganda piece?"

Since the whole idea that it's a national security issue is bullshit, well, yeah. It's not like American farmers can't still grow GMO crops because the tech and genetics have been stolen. Of course, self-important corporations like Monsanto, et al, want the rest of us to believe that their profits and trade secrets are critical to national security, never considering that industrial agriculture is likely the real threat.
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby Pops » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 14:14:34

Can't figure out why New Republic, known left wing rag that it is, would publish such obvious corporate propaganda to advance Monsanto's world domination?


FYI, hybridization was going on decades before GMOs came out in the late '90s. Actually the part I found interesting was about Wallace and especially his idea to inbreed corn before hybridizing to make it breed true. I hadn't know about that, Borlaug gets all the credit for overpopulation but certainly Wallace's breakthrough was the foundation for subsequent improvements. Plain old cross breeding a la Mendel and Wallace increased corn yields 700% before transgenetics making us all fat on the cheap surplus carbs starting back in the '70s, but don't let that interfere with your preconceptions of the evils of Monsanto.

Image


But hey, complaining about the cake around a mouthful is the 'merican way, so carry on...
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby kanon » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 15:28:23

Pops wrote:Plain old cross breeding a la Mendel and Wallace increased corn yields 700% before transgenetics making us all fat on the cheap surplus carbs starting back in the '70s, but don't let that interfere with your preconceptions of the evils of Monsanto.

But hey, complaining about the cake around a mouthful is the 'merican way, so carry on....

There you have it -- we already had good yields, but corporate power lust requires total dominion. The other point in the article that caught my eye was the reference to the very high nitrogen needs of the hybrid corn. Nitrate pollution from corn fertilizers may be far worse that fracking chemicals because it is so pervasive. Also, the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico and toxic algae in Lake Erie.

I don't want to be an ungrateful 'merican, but since I am not in the Monsanto stable, I don't have to be dazzled by the "feed the world" BS. Though there is a certain "gee-whiz" element to industrial grain production. I do agree the article is pretty good and I did learn a few things from it. Thanks.

In a way, the Monsanto controversy is similar to peak oil. The seeming advantages and great supply of corn lead to all sorts of clever applications, economic constituencies, government support, and battles for dominance. So much is invested that we cannot address the disadvantages, even when they outweigh the supposed advantages. Now about 40% of U.S. corn is for ethanol. So we are polluting the water, spreading herbicides and pesticides, and plowing up good land simply to burn fuel in cars. It is crazy consumption. The notion that there is any "national security" or food supply issue here is purely delusional.

It is hard to comment on these articles without seeming snarky, but I really take it as a heads-up to keep in mind an under appreciated tentacle of the corporate octopus.
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 15:42:52

Pops: "...but don't let that interfere with your preconceptions of the evils of Monsanto."

The "evils of Monsanto" isn't some pre-concept I have, but is based on their corporate behavior such as suing farmers who are perfectly happy not using Monsanto products, often after it was Monsanto pollen that contaminated the farmers' crops. Pure corporate bullying. Many of these farmers had developed their own locally viable hybrids over generations of trial and error; genetic diversity perhaps gone forever due to Monsanto genetic infringement.

Then there's my local problem with roundup-ready crops and superweeds. I never saw Palmer's Amaranth (super pig weed) until about ten years ago. Now it's a common problem, out-competes native weeds (many useful as forage and wildlife food), and is more resistant to glyphosate than the so-called roundup-ready crops. Plenty to demonise Monsanto over than just it's GMOs.

Besides, I detest any entity that markets itself as the 'Savior to a hungry world". I'm having great success with OP (open pollinated) and heirloom varieties and saving my own seeds, while using drip irrigation (waters the crop; not the weeds) and biodegradable paper mulch albeit, on a small scale, which is what agriculture will likely return to. Millions are going to starve anyway, eventually. Nothing I (or Monsanto) can do about that.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby Pops » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 16:26:46

Yeah, shoulda known better
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