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The Keystone (XL) Pipeline Pt 2

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 13:21:07

Guilt-aversion from a man like ennui who makes his money from burning fossil fuels and producing GHG. LOL
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 15:35:08

ROCKMAN wrote:Guilt-aversion from a man like ennui who makes his money from burning fossil fuels and producing GHG. LOL

RM, you beat me to it. I had typed: 'And you make your money from server farms. Coal." But I was called outside, and didn't have the opportunity to press the 'Enter' key).

It seems some folks need to use banal platitudes against perceived enemies to justify their own impotence. And to think . . . I'm mostly a liberal :?
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 16:42:31

pstarr - "...against perceived enemies ..." You know what they say: you're not really paranoid if "they" are really after you. Beside I find it easier to get the upper hand on imaginary enemies the real ones. LOL.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 17:14:07

I believe ennui essentially has it right. Otherwise it's just putting the cart before the horse. Those using fossil fuels are in the cart. Just a matter of changing horses.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 17:46:12

Lore wrote:I believe ennui essentially has it right. Otherwise it's just putting the cart before the horse. Those using fossil fuels are in the cart. Just a matter of changing horses.

Sorry Lore, it doesn't work that way in the real world. Those using fossil fuels are in the drivers seat. Guys like RM are just innocent ingenues along for the ride. "Oh please don't touch me. I have my honor." Blush.

But really, demand creates supply. As long as you me RM and ennui demand cheap electricity to gab on the internet, there will always be coal to supply it. Who has solar panels? Raise you hands. I see a hand over there. Wait! It's pstarr. He's great.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 18:01:15

pstarr wrote:Sorry Lore, it doesn't work that way in the real world. Those using fossil fuels are in the drivers seat. Guys like RM are just innocent ingenues along for the ride. "Oh please don't touch me. I have my honor." Blush.


How can the user be in the drivers seat when they don't make the stuff? That's totally illogical. It's like when the Mexican drug cartel was blaming so many U.S. addicts for the reason why they have to produce their brand of poison. It's ass backwards!
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 18:08:37

If RM didn't make the stuff for the user. Someone else would.

It's not ass backward, it is basic economics. Apparently in your world supply necessarily creates demand? So I could simply wrap up a rock in sturdy pretty packaging and you would have to buy it. Wow. I am a rich man. Can I have you credit card #. We take paypal. Returns not accepted.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 18:32:44

pstarr wrote:If RM didn't make the stuff for the user. Someone else would.

It's not ass backward, it is basic economics. Apparently in your world supply necessarily creates demand? So I could simply wrap up a rock in sturdy pretty packaging and you would have to buy it. Wow. I am a rich man. Can I have you credit card #. We take paypal. Returns not accepted.


In my world you don't sell things that unintentionally hurt people. Knowing that it does makes it premeditated.

Like smoking addiction it's all really fashionable till you find out that there is a price to pay.

So, if you want to end the cycle of harmful addiction, simply stop the supply. Continuing to feed and promote the addiction won't help.

"See the USA in your Chevrolet!" Just doesn't cut it anymore.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 18:33:48

"If RM didn't make the stuff for the user. Someone else would."

The refuge of scoundrels.

"If I didn't rape here, somebody else would have."

If you reject the latter, you must reject the former, and all other instances of such gutter morality.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 18:47:51

I know what you two mean. You two are stuck having to drive your cars and you hate it. And you need to lash out at somebody. That sad. But common I guess.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 19:00:58

pstarr wrote:I know what you two mean. You two are stuck having to drive your cars and you hate it. And you need to lash out at somebody. That sad. But common I guess.


You'd be surprised how quickly alternatives would become available if filling the gas tank in our cars became too expensive. Right now all I see is the fossil fuel industry restricting choices.

We need to stop the growth of fossil fuels and use them sparingly to jump start our transition while we still have the tine, both financially and environmentally.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 19:11:10

ennui2 wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:If it were up to me I'd build the pipeline and leave the oil companies alone, but then as far as govt supports I'd fund green tech.


Your politics are schizophrenic. You can't have it both ways, man.

Why? This would be an approach that would acknowledge that we still need fossil fuel energy, given our voracious energy demands and how little we have done in the past to develop green energy, but it would also move toward better alternatives being available in the future -- assuming the green funding is honest, and truly about energy instead of politics. It also wouldn't force the use of trains (which produce GHG's, crash and burn, etc), or using other pipelines with their own problems.

In the real world, politics requires balance, since, in a democracy there are alternate parties and policies (as much as the POTUS from both sides do the same thing, like stupid energy policies, term after term).
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 22:09:55

I mostly bike and walk. Nice try at a red herring, though.

"we still need fossil fuel energy"

What makes you think any of the oil piped through Keystone would have gone to 'us'--the whole point was to get it across the US so that it could be processed on the Gulf and shipped overseas to the highest bidder.

Meanwhile, here's some red meat for all you obsessive Obama haters:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ate-legacy

By rejecting Keystone, President Obama cements his climate legacy

The Obama Administration made the right decision to reject the Keystone XL project


...When we look back, the Obama Administration will be acknowledged as the first Administration to take climate change seriously.

It is the first Administration that started to bend the curve of emissions.

It is the first Administration that ushered the U.S. into the new energy economy.

For my students and my children, who may end up working in the solar and wind industries, this president is the one that gave them the chance to bring energy to our homes in a way that didn’t warm the climate.

Presidents do matter.

Thank you President Obama.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 09 Nov 2015, 23:08:03

And: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... 109?page=2

Do you think this decision will be a big part of [Obama's] legacy on climate?

I do. I think it's a huge part, because everything else, most of it, is sort of promises and pledges for the future that other people have to achieve.

He's the first world leader to stop a big project because of its effect on the climate — that's a real legacy, and one that will reverberate all over the world.

I think this is a really important moment, not just for Keystone, but in a much larger sense. And I think the proof of that is, in the wake of this battle over Keystone, every fossil fuel project around the world now is facing the same kind of resistance. As one industry executive said this year, there's been a Keystone-ization of every other pipeline, coal mine and fracking well — and that's a very good thing.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Synapsid » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 00:16:44

dohboi,

You do understand that oil shipped on the northern leg of Keystone XL would have joined the oil that is already being shipped to the refineries on the Gulf Coast that have bought it?

Yes, the refineries would have processed it into refined products like gasoline and diesel and such, and yes, they would then have sold those products to their markets, just like the other oil coming down from Canada, and just like they have been doing right along.

The purpose of the northern leg of KXL was the same as the purpose of the other pipelines carrying Canadian oil to the Gulf Coast refineries.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 01:05:38

Lore wrote:
pstarr wrote:Sorry Lore, it doesn't work that way in the real world. Those using fossil fuels are in the drivers seat. Guys like RM are just innocent ingenues along for the ride. "Oh please don't touch me. I have my honor." Blush.


How can the user be in the drivers seat when they don't make the stuff? That's totally illogical. It's like when the Mexican drug cartel was blaming so many U.S. addicts for the reason why they have to produce their brand of poison. It's ass backwards!

Yah, it's those Saudis, Iraqis, Iranians, Kuwaitis and Venezuelans. We should demand that they at least form an organization to put quota limits on their exports.
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 02:12:48

"Yes, the refineries would have processed it into refined products like gasoline and diesel and such, and yes, they would then have sold those products to their markets..."

Yup, that's what I was saying. Glad we can agree here.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 06:32:47

The climate legacy of President Obama is one of failure after failure. Personally I had great hopes when the Democrat party took the Presidency that we would see a lot of Environmental improvements. Instead we have had 7 years of lip service with almost no actual measurable progress. So much could have been done, but wasn't. Rhetoric does not help anything except appearance over substance.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 10:01:24

If dohboi et al didn't use the stuff then Rockman wouldn't have a job looking for it...nor would anyone else. But even if dohboi didn't use the stuff other consumers would so it doesn't make any difference if he didn't produce GHG by consuming hydrocarbons...it would still happen anyway. So he continues participating in the process.

The refuge of scoundrels. Kinda like gang rape mentality: the fossil fuels are going to get burned by other consumers anyway so why not participate. LOL.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Tue 10 Nov 2015, 10:19:03

Tanada wrote:The climate legacy of President Obama is one of failure after failure. Personally I had great hopes when the Democrat party took the Presidency that we would see a lot of Environmental improvements. Instead we have had 7 years of lip service with almost no actual measurable progress. So much could have been done, but wasn't. Rhetoric does not help anything except appearance over substance.


You may want to blame that on a Republican Congress which is dead set against moving forward with any kind of environmental agenda. The President can only put forth policy suggestions. It's up to our lawmakers to put such lip service into action.
Last edited by Lore on Tue 10 Nov 2015, 10:26:41, edited 1 time in total.
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