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The Keystone (XL) Pipeline Pt 2

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 18:42:56

Lore wrote:Rock, of course it will have an impact. It already is.


Yup.

Obama's 7-year-long delay in making a decision has resulted in the development of a huge oil train industry, with trains carrying the oil that would more efficiently and safe go by pipeline. Now after 7 years we can see that depending on oil trains has led to multiple oil train accidents with concomitant deaths and destruction.

Now that O's decision is finally made, we can look forward to more oil trains, more accidents, more deaths, and more destruction.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 18:49:47

Plantagenet wrote:
Lore wrote:Rock, of course it will have an impact. It already is.


Yup.

Obama's 7-year-long delay in making a decision has resulted in the development of a huge oil train industry, with trains carrying the oil that would more efficiently and safe go by pipeline. Now after 7 years we can see that depending on oil trains has led to multiple oil train accidents with concomitant deaths and destruction.

Now that O's decision is finally made, we can look forward to more oil trains, more accidents, more deaths, and more destruction.


That was already pointed out by Obama. The KXL was a non starter from the beginning that offered us and the environment nothing other than to further enrich the pockets of the few wealthy.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 18:57:00

Lore wrote: The KXL was a non starter from the beginning that offered us and the environment nothing other than to further enrich the pockets of the few wealthy.


Like oil trains are good for the environment? ReallY?

Like Obama's wealthy crony Warren Buffet doesn't make billions from the exploding oil trains that Obama just protected from being displaced by a safer pipeline?

So---Why is it a good thing for Obama to enrich the pockets of Warren Buffet by keeping the exploding oil trains rolling? :lol:
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Apneaman » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 19:16:47

planty, you are a slow learner too. Here is the perfect opportunity to finally clue in, a perfect example that the left-right thing is a complete farce, intentionally overblown, propagandized, manipulated and managed all for the benefit of the real PTB. Divide and rule 101. It don't matter who is in the white house. Apes with "beliefs " and "worldviews" are easy to manage. They got a playbook for both Libtards and Conservatards. It's clear as day once you emotionally detach yourself from the tribe and it's prefabricated list of issues and beliefs you must adhere to.

BTW cog, there are thousands of blue collar rail workers lauding Obama as the working man's hero today - probably have been for awhile. I'm betting plenty of new hires and overtime the last 5 years for them railyard boys. Bet they'll be reminded who "did them a solid" come election time too. Sure they did;) Bet some Nebraska farmers and ranchers (not exactly bleeding heart liberals) are happy to hear that no pipe line will be running over their water sources. Is anyone really suprised that 350.org would not latch on and claim victory? Anytime one of the sheeples tribes gets a so called victory, it's always because it coincides with a powerful interests. Last winter we had net neutrality hailed as a victory for privacy for the little guy. BS it's what Google and some other heavy hitters wanted. Any benefit to the sheep were coincidental. Same with the guns - nothing to do with "freedom". Just money and effective lobbying/bribing.


“Rail transport has expanded greatly to carry oil sands to the United States — soaring from just 16,000 barrels in 2010 to 51.2 million barrels in 2014 before dropping back somewhat so far this year.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... -concerns/
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 19:25:08

Apneaman wrote:“Rail transport has expanded greatly to carry oil sands to the United States — soaring from just 16,000 barrels in 2010 to 51.2 million barrels in 2014 before dropping back somewhat so far this year.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... -concerns/


Yup. Thats my point.

Thanks to Obama delaying a decision on the pipeline for 7 years, transport of Canadian oil to the US is now occurring mainly via exploding oil trains.

Why is that better for the environment than a pipeline?

AND, If you include the CO2 emitted by the diesel engines moving the oil, much more CO2 will be released by using the exploding oil trains to move the oil then would be released with a pipeline.

Since the oil trains are more dangerous and release more CO2, why are oil trains the preferred alternative?

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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 19:50:07

Plantagenet wrote:
Lore wrote: The KXL was a non starter from the beginning that offered us and the environment nothing other than to further enrich the pockets of the few wealthy.


Like oil trains are good for the environment? ReallY?

Like Obama's wealthy crony Warren Buffet doesn't make billions from the exploding oil trains that Obama just protected from being displaced by a safer pipeline?

So---Why is it a good thing for Obama to enrich the pockets of Warren Buffet by keeping the exploding oil trains rolling? :lol:



A false choice we need to get rid of most of the oil trains too!
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 20:18:31

This is about how the Tar Baby rides when he travels, D choo choo, R via pipeline, when he
is not grounded in Alberta by some big valves in Saudi.

The real environmental issues and passions are valid but the politics is just about who gets
the ticket money when the Tar Baby travels.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 21:12:43

Lore wrote:we need to get rid of most of the oil trains too!


Of course. But for some reason the oil trains failed to go away during the 7 years Obama has already delayed the pipeline. Why do you imagine the giant oil trains will suddenly disappear just because O finally cancelled it today? Isn't that just "magical thinking" i.e. wishing and pretending things will magically change to something else?

Meanwhile back here in the real world, thanks to Obama we are left with Canada shipping millions of barrels of oil into the US via gigantic oil trains that have a tendency to crash and explode.

And thanks to obama we will be producing MORE CO2 from the huge numbers of diesel numbers of diesel engines taking the giant oil trains from Canada across the USA.

Gee---explain to me again why dangerous oil trains and increased CO2 emissions are a good thing?

Image
Thanks for all the oil trains, Ds! Oooooh! Look at the fireball when this one went up!
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Lore » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 22:42:57

Well, for one thing the oil trains were already running. It's easier to kill something before it starts then to end a way of doing things that have already been implemented.

Had we not used fossil fuels to begin with we wouldn't be having this discussion. Old habits are hard to break.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 23:28:35

Lore wrote:Well, for one thing the oil trains were already running.


No they weren't.

The whole oil train mess has grown and grown during the 7 years that Obama blocked the pipeline, until now we've got 3.4 million bbls/day of Canadian oil coming into the US, a good part of it on exploding oil trains.

Thanks Ds. What a brilliant energy policy.

-------------------

Still, its good for somebody. Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway reported record quarterly profits today of 4.4 billion---with big growth in Buffet's railroad profits thanks to the oil trains.

Obama's wealthy cronies benefit from ban on oil pipeline
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 23:47:30

http://priceofoil.org/2015/11/06/how-th ... -symbolic/

How the Keystone XL Decision is Neither “Irrelevant” Nor “Just Symbolic”

The rejection of Keystone XL today marks a turning point for energy decisions: in future, policymakers will be under pressure to consider climate impacts of any new policies and infrastructure.

But it is not only setting a bar for future energy decisions: the climate impact of stopping this pipeline is real. Last week we released analysis finding that the existing pipelines out of Alberta are already 89% full:

if no more are built, tar sands production cannot grow.

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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby GHung » Fri 06 Nov 2015, 23:59:33

Funny that Plant. Seems someone mentioned Buffet's trains and democrat supporters on the main thread:
"BTW, Plant, a helluva lot of this oil moves on Warren Buffet’s trains. You really think Obama is going to piss off one of his biggest supporters, major benefactor of Democrat causes, and his 48,000+ BNSF employees? I’m not accusing you of being naive, but it surely seems that way."


Glad to see you got with the program 8O

At least Barry has his priorities in order, eh, Plant. You said; 'The whole oil train mess has grown and grown during the 7 years that Obama blocked the pipeline, until now we've got 3.4 million bbls/day of Canadian oil coming into the US, a good part of it on exploding oil trains."

A bit hyperbolic, even for you. Think the Republicans' strategy would have been any more environmentally friendly, all things considered? Follow the money, Plant. That's all that matters. Buffet has a lot of it, and trains that carry oil. If Buffet was a hard-core republican, do you thing things would be different?
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 00:16:44

GHung wrote:eh, Plant. You said; 'The whole oil train mess has grown and grown during the 7 years that Obama blocked the pipeline, until now we've got 3.4 million bbls/day of Canadian oil coming into the US, a good part of it on exploding oil trains."

....think the Republicans' strategy would have been any more environmentally friendly, all things considered?


I don't really see the point in discussing fantasies. Lore (above) fantasized about how wonderful things would be if humans never started using fossil fuels and now you are fantasizing about how terrible things would've been if the Rs had been in control instead of Obama.

Sure, whatever. And how about if the south had won the civil war? Or what if the French had defeated the British at the battle of Montreal? Alternative history is fun!

Meanwhile, back here in the real world, Obama's policy over the last 7 years has resulted in the creation of a huge fleet of oil trains that run 24-7 bringing Canadian oil into the US. These oil trains have been involved in several catastrophic accidents, and the CO2 emissions from them are higher then you'd get just from a pipeline system. The oil trains are pulled by multiple diesel locomotives. Diesel engines are about the filthiest kind of engine you can get, with both CO2 and black particulate carbon being powerful Greenhouse warming agents, and Nox and other pollutants being some of the worst and most lethal kinds of air pollution you can get.

Personally I think it would have been better to have built the safer, cleaner pipeline system with lower CO2 emissions 7 years ago to deliver Canadian oil to the US, rather then delaying so long that producers turned to the more dangerous oil train system with much higher CO2 and black carbon emissions that Obama's policies have actually produced and which we are now stuck with for the foreseeable future.

cheers!
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Synapsid » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 02:13:43

Plantagenet,

Before going on further about most Canadian oil being exported by a huge fleet of exploding oil trains:

look up the volume and percentage of Canadian oil brought into the US by pipeline, and the volume and percentage brought in by rail.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 06:49:48

Synapsid wrote:look up the volume and percentage of Canadian oil brought into the US by pipeline, and the volume and percentage brought in by rail.


I read some news about that, it said that actually oil imports are up anyway and the tar sands oil still comes in. This year alone, extra imports add up to 45% of what the pipeline would have carried anyway.

Just incidentally, I wonder if oil by rail is good support for the rail industry?

Funny thing about that is that the first oil pipelines in the world were invented by Rockefeller and his Standard Oil, the result of a fight versus the railroad barons. The railroads kept raising the price to move the oil, and Rockefeller kept gaming to get a low price, then finally he started building pipelines and then that really hurt the railroads when they lost that business.

As for exploding oil trains..

Well actaully, trains don't often derail it's sort of a rare thing. But yep, when they DO, and if it's a big huge oil train then that may as well be the Exxon Valdez running aground in Ohio or somewhere. I think on balance, keystone would have been safer (and vastly more efficient, and cheaper) than rail.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 07:15:44

Some Canadian reaction, Liberal Party PM Trudeau says he is disappointed at O's decision, but respects it was the USA's right to make this decision.

(by the way, that Trudeau seems way too young and I saw him interviewed by a Canadian reporter and to be quite frank he doesn't seem to know anything. They were trying to ask him questions about the recession and deficit, and Trudeau just smiles a lot but doesn't really seem to know much..

Apparently before parliament, he tried being an "actor" and was also a "bungee instructor" for a while. He has a famous name, father being an an ex PM.)

So anyhow, Trudeau doesn't know what to say really about the pipeline because he just doesn't know about anything anyway much less the oil industry and much less even knowing about eco issues in any detail, or caring about that either. Trudeau seems like a young guy that smiles a lot and looks good on a magazine cover but that's about it, not much there there otherwise.

Even Canada's far left socialist party, the NDP, supports their oil industry.

NDP says climate change discussion should be "drama free" and rational when it comes to oil. NDP also blames Alberta's PM, saying if she had done a better job on climate change in other areas then the world would have a different view of Alberta and wouldn't be talking about the tar sands so much.

Image
Alberta Premier Rachel Notley spoke to reporters after the U.S. president's decision.

Alberta Premier Rachel Notley said she was not surprised at the decision, but was disappointed by Obama’s description of the oilsands in her province.

“It was not necessary to be quite so critical in the way they described our energy product,” Notley told reporters. “The U.S. relies on our oil. They currently import already over 300-million barrels a day, and so I don’t think it is a particularly logical explanation for why they would reach this position.”

The premier from the center-left New Democratic Party stressed the need for “careful drama-free conversations” on energy infrastructure, but she also said Obama’s decision underlines the fact that Alberta needs to do a better of job of convincing the world of its genuine effort to combat climate change.

“The U.S. makes decisions on the basis of their internal domestic policies… but I do think that one thing that would have made this decision better was ensuring that our record was a better one.”


Canadian conservatives and ex PM Harper are "extremely disappointed:"

The Conservative party — which was in power for nearly a decade under Stephen Harper until last month’s election — said it was extremely disappointed that Obama had “succumbed to domestic political pressure."

“It has been clear for some time that — despite the facts, economic benefits and environmental safeguards — the White House’s decision was a fait accompli,” interim party leader Rona Ambrose said in a press release.

"This project has proven to be good for the economy, the strengthening of energy security in North America, and for environmentally sustainable development. The rejection of Keystone will not stop Canadian oil exports to the United States. It simply means we will continue to rely on transportation alternatives like shipping and rail.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/11/06/keystone-pipeline-rejection-canada-obama-trudeau_n_8495278.html


Lastly, about Canada -- before the pipeline decision, and it's not related to it, but Trudeau called Obama on the phone and said he's pulling back Canada's 6 fighter jets from the anti-ISIS coalition. Trudeau is beginning to indicate that Canada won't do anything or help at all, in the war against ISIS, and he told Obama that Canada won't help with any expanded mission to remove Assad (I heard that part on tv news):

“I committed that we would continue to engage in a responsible way that understands how important Canada has a role to play in the fight against [ISIS,] but [Obama] understands the commitments I’ve made around ending the combat mission,” Trudeau told reporters, the BBC reports. He did not indicate how quickly or when the withdrawal would take place.

Canada also has 70 special forces troops stationed in northern Iraq to help train Kurdish fighters, according to AFP, and Trudeau hasn’t yet indicated a desire to end that particular mission.
http://time.com/4080754/canada-syria-withdrawal/


So THAT policy is a result of liberal domestic politics in Canada, just as canceling this pipeline was the result of liberal politics in the US.

So now ISIS isn't being fought and the insane madman caliphate continues to grow, and we don't have the pipeline either and have to load the oil on trains and build a bunch of smaller pipelines instead.

Maybe liberals, in the US and Canada, are wrong about some things?

Trudeau is just a smiling face and not a serious leader, seems to me. He's pulling Canada out of doing what little it was doing (token) for the coalition, just so he can be "anti war" or whatever.

And on the pipeline, Obama's own state dept concluded it wouldn't have added to greenhouse gasses, but he still canceled it.

My thinking on the issue -- if Canada isn't going to help in international affairs and be a full partner anyway, then that alone is reason to cancel the pipeline. Canada has to pull its full weight, there is no free lunch in the alliance and the world doesn't run on rainbows and skittles and "bungee jump instructors" and USA just protects everyone all by itself.

By the way, this is the interview I saw with Trudeau, he seems out of his depth to me, talking to this older journalist, and it's a lot of general non specific stuff like just "change:"

Justin Trudeau Interview with Peter Mansbridge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkMa8UcABnA


Canada's been in recession in 2015, due to the crash in oil prices, and deficit spending is up. I posted another article about Canada and about how much money has flown out of there, the most decline of the top ten economies.

Trudeau seems out of his depth to me, when asked "we're in recession now, what's the first thing you do about the economy" and Trudeau says "call together the premiers and talk about climate change." That answer doesn't even relate to the economy.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 09:47:39

dohboi - Not approving the KXL permit was a win for the environment reflecting a change in policies??? You mean those policies that led to the expansion of pipeline capacity moving oil sands production (including moving across the border) into the US? You mean President Obama's public support of the building of the southern leg of KXL which removed the one big impediment to oil sands development: the choke point at Cushing, OK? Do you mean the govt policy of increasing the leasing of its westetn coal deposits??? Do you mean the policy of the govt behind its efforts to build new coal export terminals on the west coast? Do you mean the govt policy, under the leadership of our greenest POTUS, to expadite the approval of permits to expand the capacity of coal export facilities on the Texas coast? Do you mean the govt policy to offer over 100 million acreas of oil/NG leases in the GOM after one of the greatest offshore oil spills in history? Do you mean the POTUS's policy of approving every request for an exception to the US oil export "ban"? Exceptions that have allowed export rates of over 200 million bbls per year? And that includes the export of condensate to Canada which is required to pump oil sands production thru the pipeline systems? Do you mean the the govt policy of not just permitting but also promoting the export of refinery products made from almost 1 BILLION BBLS OF OIL PER YEAR? Do you mean the govt policy of providing funds to the single largest consumer of fossil fuels on the planet...the US Dept of Defense? IOW providing the budget for the single largest generator of GHG in the world?

Many more examples but I'll stop there. So you want to put up the policy of not permitting just this one pipeline segment that has had no impact on GHG production and climate change against this long yet incomplete list of policies I just highlighted? And that produces some sense of success for you? And should for all the greenies out there? Are their feelings of failure so severe they have to claim such an insignificant issue as a huge win?

One cannot but have great sympathy for them: to have lost almost every battle and yet continue to think they're winning the war. Reminds of the Japanese govt not surrendering after the first nuke exploded. The greenies shouldn't surrender, of course. But convincing the public they won a significant battle just reinforces to those same folks that matters are getting better and BAU will continue without problems.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 09:48:51

dohboi wrote:http://priceofoil.org/2015/11/06/how-the-keystone-xl-decision-is-neither-irrelevant-nor-just-symbolic/

How the Keystone XL Decision is Neither “Irrelevant” Nor “Just Symbolic”

The rejection of Keystone XL today marks a turning point for energy decisions: in future, policymakers will be under pressure to consider climate impacts of any new policies and infrastructure.

But it is not only setting a bar for future energy decisions: the climate impact of stopping this pipeline is real. Last week we released analysis finding that the existing pipelines out of Alberta are already 89% full:

if no more are built, tar sands production cannot grow.



Actually it is both. It is a form of magical thinking to believe that the next set of politicians in office will just blindly follow the course President Obama chose to follow. President Clinton was very different from President George H.W. Bush, and when Presdent W. Bush came along he in turn was very different as well. President Obama will be succeeded by someone else, who will have different personality, different goals and different methods. Whomever that person is they will lead in their own direction and if that means lots of pipelines then they will streamline the process.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby GHung » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 09:49:45

Six posted the quote:

Alberta Premier Rachel Notley said she was not surprised at the decision, but was disappointed by Obama’s description of the oilsands in her province.

“It was not necessary to be quite so critical in the way they described our energy product,” Notley told reporters. “The U.S. relies on our oil. They currently import already over 300-million barrels a day, and so I don’t think it is a particularly logical explanation for why they would reach this position.”


300-million barrels a day? Gosh.... it's no wonder we have a glut 8O
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Re: Obama Administration to Reject Keystone XL

Unread postby Cog » Sat 07 Nov 2015, 10:10:32

The next Republican president will reverse this decision. So we will have trains AND a pipeline.

Cheers.
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