THE International Monetary Fund Thread (merged)

[KevO]

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This could have something to due with the reports that the Middle East is on the verge of exploding. The Europeans are now amassing the greatest navel fleet in the Mid, that has been seen since War II!

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O M G

[rwwff]

I expect that we are in for a serious wakeup call, and morons of FOX aren’t going to tell us about it until the bell goes off.

And when they do, it'll be set to a "March on Victory" music and screaching pictures of F/A 18 Super Hornets.

[Fergus]

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This could have something to due with the reports that the Middle East is on the verge of exploding. The Europeans are now amassing the greatest navel fleet in the Mid, that has been seen since War II!

DEBKAfile Exclusive Military Report

This expectation has brought together the greatest sea and air armada Europe has ever assembled at any point on earth since World War II: two carriers with 75 fighter-bombers, spy planes and helicopters on their decks; 15 warships of various types – 7 French, 5 Italian, 2-3 Green, 3-5 German, and five American; thousands of Marines – French, Italian and German, as well as 1,800 US Marines.

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1208

Also, it could be that other things are percolating below our radar. J.B. Morgan has, in the last quarter floated $5.5 trillion, (almost one half of the GNP for the US), in derivatives on natural gas. Since natgas is supposedly above inventory levels for this time of year, what do they know that we don’t! $5.5 trillion is not bird seed money; this is mind binding!

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/edito ... /0913.html

I expect that we are in for a serious wakeup call, and morons of FOX aren’t going to tell us about it until the bell goes off.

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Wow. Had no idea about that build up in the med. Thats scary. Especially when you consider they could become a liability in that area. It looks more and more likely a flair up could occur over in the mid east.

[seahorse2]

The massive amout JP Morgan put into natural gas is just astounding. Others have argued it wouldn't be possible to manipulate markets, I don't think so, especially when we see these large traders are exempt from SEC regs for national security reasons.

[ClubOfRomeII]

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This could have something to due with the reports that the Middle East is on the verge of exploding. The Europeans are now amassing the greatest navel fleet in the Mid, that has been seen since War II!

Once there was a Frenchman, who after assembling the best and largest Naval flotilla his, and other European countries could put together, remarked apon running naval exercises with the American Sixth Fleet,

"Our stuff looks like bathtub toys compared to theirs".

Lets not get to excited now when we talk about ANYTHING European, and naval, in the same sentence.

Unless of course we want to relive ancient history, prior to the 21st century, by which time Europeans were mostly irrelevant?

[KevO]

Unless of course we want to relive ancient history, prior to the 21st century, by which time Europeans were mostly irrelevant?

Come now. You are a European as it was them pesky Europeans that discovered America, (which pleased the Indians as they hadn't a f****** clue where they were) but that's what you are.

[shortonoil]

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rwwff said:

And when they do, it'll be set to a "March on Victory" music and screaching pictures of F/A 18 Super Hornets.

I hope your WWI combat boots still fit.



Fergus said:

Wow. Had no idea about that build up in the med. Thats scary. Especially when you consider they could become a liability in that area. It looks more and more likely a flair up could occur over in the mid east.

We have, also got the Russians and Chinese to deal with in the area. They both have huge investments in Iran and other Middle Eastern countries, and the Russians, I’m sure, have not forgotten the $32 billion screwing that Bush gave them when he, liberated, Iraq. Small wonder that J.P. Morgan and Citicorp have corned all the natural gas that will be available for the foreseeable future.

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[shortonoil]

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ClubOfRomeII said:

Lets not get to excited now when we talk about ANYTHING European, and naval, in the same sentence.

It is also possible, that a lot of US carriers will be operating in the future, as fish farms on the bottom of the Mediterranean, when they run into a swarm of Russian Sunburn missiles!

Now, that would rapidly and decidedly change the world’s balance of power. Hubris, as Shrub and company are finding out, is a very poor strategy to base ones actions upon!

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[Novus]

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http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1208

Also, it could be that other things are percolating below our radar. J.B. Morgan has, in the last quarter floated $5.5 trillion, (almost one half of the GNP for the US), in derivatives on natural gas. Since natgas is supposedly above inventory levels for this time of year, what do they know that we don’t! $5.5 trillion is not bird seed money; this is mind binding!

Iran is the largest producer of natural gas after Russia. So basically one of the largest banks in America has placed a 5 trillion dollar bet that Iran will be attacked and world natural gas supplies will be severely interupted.

[rwwff]

I hope your WWI combat boots still fit.

I'm not that old and creaky. Hopefully by the time they get around to drafting someone as beat up as me, they'll let me bring my own boots along.

Maybe I should pick up a new pair of regulation boots and get'em good and broken in. They're pretty comfy..

It is also possible, that a lot of US carriers will be operating in the future, as fish farms on the bottom of the Mediterranean, when they run into a swarm of Russian Sunburn missiles!

While it would be interesting to see some results from a non asymetric engagement, I don't think the Sunburn's will do the task.

Warhead is just too small. Could do some serious damage I'm sure, but there won't be any carriers sunk via sunburn.

A review of WWII naval footage will provide a good reference to how how damage a ship can take without ceasing combat operations or sinking.

[ipWinston]

I'm visitng the IMF with my college class tomorrow and we're encouraged to ask questions...
any suggestions?

[shortonoil]

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Novus said:

Iran is the largest producer of natural gas after Russia. So basically one of the largest banks in America has placed a 5 trillion dollar bet that Iran will be attacked and world natural gas supplies will be severely interupted..

Makes more sense than any other argument, good insight Novus. We know that Shrub’s pack are attached at the hip with the big investment banks, so tipping off your buddies to a great little investment scam seems quite possible. What happened to military secrecy; National Security an all that crap? Sounds more like Atlas Shrugged every day, the thugs and thieves take over the government and drain the country! Oh well, it’s just money. When these vipers are done it will be ironic that the money they stole at the expense of 100,000s of thousand lives and their nation’s misery, will be absolutely useless. It will serves them right, but how about the future generations that will live in total abject poverty for generations. It sort of defines evil, doesn’t it?

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[rwwff]

When these vipers are done it will be ironic that the money they stole at the expense of 100,000s of thousand lives and their nation’s misery, will be absolutely useless.

Nahh, these guys diversify as soon as they absolutely can. Its like a religion for them. Within weeks of cashing out, they'll have that money in rubels and euros and gold and silver and guns and yen and yuan; they'll be in stocks of a thousand different companies in a dozen different exchanges.

It sort of defines evil, doesn’t it?

Power is evil. It permits men to do what they would only otherwise wistfully dream about. It makes nightmares real.

[Free]

Let's also not forget:
1.) the reason for the European naval build up, namely enforcing peace in Lebanon.

2.) the poor reputation of DEBKA, who repeatedly have proven to report biased and sensational. Namely they spread the meme of "WWIII around the corner because of evil Iran muslim conspiracy only waiting to attack blah blah blah...."

[ClubOfRomeII]

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ClubOfRomeII said:

Lets not get to excited now when we talk about ANYTHING European, and naval, in the same sentence.

It is also possible, that a lot of US carriers will be operating in the future, as fish farms on the bottom of the Mediterranean, when they run into a swarm of Russian Sunburn missiles!

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Could be!! But alot of people have been betting against carrier battle groups for a long time, and I imagine the game will continue until someone finds and builds something better. But it ain't happened yet.

[ClubOfRomeII]

Iran is the largest producer of natural gas after Russia.

Got any references? I found a 36 billion cubic meter number for their production, and 17-19 TCF for the US, which I think is a fair amount bigger.

Could the 36 billion just be export, and Iran itself produces alot more for its own use?

[rwwff]

Could be!! But alot of people have been betting against carrier battle groups for a long time, and I imagine the game will continue until someone finds and builds something better. But it ain't happened yet.

One other note I didn't mention on the Sunburn. The range of the aircraft launched from a carrier vastly exceeds the range of the Sunburns. If the Hezb's have Sunburns, they'd be hacked together land launched derivatives, and there is no way a US carrier is going to come within the range of such missles. [Silkworms by comparison have a larger warhead, but shorter range]

So basically, I stick with my original opinion, that I'll be interested in them when they have an actual kill of a cruiser or carrier within a US battlegroup; till then, its all hype.

If there are hits, I'd suspect it'll be against frigates or coastal patrol boats.

[ClubOfRomeII]

Let's also not forget:
1.) the reason for the European naval build up, namely enforcing peace in Lebanon.

A place where no one is actually shooting at each other is the PERFECT place for a European naval buildup.

Of course, if a shot gets fired I suppose they'll tuck tail and run and if that doesn't work, they'll surrender to the first Hezbollah operated Chris Craft they can get within hailing range.

[cube]

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While it would be interesting to see some results from a non asymetric engagement, I don't think the Sunburn's will do the task.

Warhead is just too small. Could do some serious damage I'm sure, but there won't be any carriers sunk via sunburn.
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Supersonic anti-ship missiles are the "next big thing" in naval warfare. It has the potential to change warfare the way the aircraft carrier did. Yes it's that significant!

So why is it that no one takes anti ship missiles that seriously?

It's simple. The military much like most human institutions are inherently reactive not proactive. The only time radical change in strategy can happen is when something significant happens. For example it took Pearl Harbor before America embraced aircraft carriers. And if you think this is limited to military strategy think again. Look at how slow the music industry is adapting to this new invention called the "internet"......they're still trying to shove $15 music CD's down our throats!

The day that an aircraft carrier gets sunk by an anti-ship missile there will be a paradigm shift in naval strategy. No longer can an aircraft carrier simply go anywhere anytime it wants with impunity. Even a Carrier battle group must be careful. Ships are $$$ and losing one looks really bad on a captain's resume.

If Saddam had sunburn missiles the USA never would of parked aircraft carriers off the coast of Iraq flying in jet fighters and bombers inland at their leisure.

[rwwff]

So why is it that no one takes anti ship missiles that seriously?

They are taken seriously, they are not treated as an "ultimate weapon" which they aren't.

The day that an aircraft carrier gets sunk by an anti-ship missile there will be a paradigm shift in naval strategy.

True enough. Let me know when it happens.

Ships are $$$ and losing one looks really bad on a captain's resume.

Losing one in battle does not look bad on your resume. Losing one by smacking it into a reef, now that looks bad. Running away from a fight because you're afraid of the enemy's capabilities when you have orders to engage will likely get you demoted, humiliated, shot, and dumped in a garbage bin; not necessarily in that order.

If Saddam had sunburn missiles the USA never would of parked aircraft carriers off the coast of Iraq flying in jet fighters and bombers inland at their leisure.

Note the permanent bases in Iraq... Gee I wonder what those are for. Kinda hard to sink a concrete airstrip on land with a <500lb warhead.

Saddam is being ridiculed on TV daily in his own country. Even if he's not convicted on any particular count, there are thousands upon thousands of counts of murder that they can bring, one after the other to keep him in court until he dies of a stroke, foaming at the mouth like the rabid dog he is.