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THE Hybrid Transportation Thread pt 2(merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Next generation hybrid cars?

Unread postby dub_scratch » Mon 15 May 2006, 19:42:45

lorenzo wrote:
This doesn't do away the slow rotation and replacement ratios, and I agree that this could pose a temporary, minor problem.


If we are discussing the prospects for rapid increase in fuel economy for the whole fleet, the issue of slow replacement cycles is not minor at all. If engineers developed technology for a 150 mpg car, it will not do any good if the 220 million cars we already have is not one of them.

And in terms of it being a temporary problem, well I don't think so. If our fleet remains inefficient in a chronic oil shortage then VMT will plummet and the replacement cycle will get longer-- no new cars will be sold and the auto industry will die (R.I.P. :twisted: ).
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Re: Next generation hybrid cars?

Unread postby RacerJace » Mon 15 May 2006, 22:23:59

Lorenzo, I find your extreem optimisim quite amusing. Some of what you are saying is plausible in terms of having a delaying effect on an energy crisis but I do believe our real problem is a matter of timing.. The Auto industry has been caught short and is suffering serious cash flow problems. It [auto industry] is too slow, too comitted to current infrastucture and too late to do anything meaningful about reducing overall fossil fuel consumption.

I've worked in the auto industry for 15 years and I know they are so wieghed down with extreemly demanding development processes to achiev increasingly complex products at ever reducing cost that they are stuck in quicksand. The global auto industry is often regarded as the largest non-profit business in the world.

Many senior execs in GM and Ford are coming to realise that filing for bankruptcy and a total shakedown of the industry in the USA is the only option. It will unlock the assets to some extent and allow reconfiguration for the production of, as Dubya said "a more relevnat product".

As for high efficency hybrids.. my vote is for a compressed air hybrid engine It has the potential to be far more simple, robust and reliable than battery technology.

.
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Hybrid Technology Driven by $600/gallon fuel?

Unread postby Bleep » Tue 16 May 2006, 08:01:06

Truth can be stranger than fiction.

The US military may get its own hybrid bruiser (link)
Posted May 15th 2006 5:28PM by Eric Bryant

The primary job of the US military's ground forces isn't to haul fuel, but you wouldn't know that by looking at the mix of cargo that it lugs around the battlefield. Approximately 70% of military vehicle cargo is fuel, which is no surprise considering that a large off-road truck may only get 2-4 MPG. Add everything up, and cost of getting that fuel to the front lines can top $600/gallon.

Oshkosh has a solution, however - the Heavy Expanded Mobility Technical Truck, or HEMTT, fitted with the company's ProPulse hybrid drive system. The system uses a diesel motor to spin a generator in a series hybrid configuration, where no mechanical connection exists between the IC engine and the drive axles. Ultracapacitors are used instead of batteries to store energy. The ProPulse system packs 300 kilowatts (just over 400 HP) of electrical power - enough to lug 13 tons of cargo around, over, or through just about any terrain. Used as a stationary generator, the HEMTT can power several houses in event of a power outage.

... The system is currently in the prototype phase ...
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Re: Hybrid Technology Driven by $600/gallon fuel?

Unread postby Bleep » Tue 16 May 2006, 08:24:11

$600/gallon can be seen as a lot of "leverage". Just about anything you do to save fuel at that price point will pay off in the long run.

Since this is spearheading research into hybrid systems for large vehicles it will bring down some of the R & D costs for other large vehicles such as trucks used to transport goods and food.

Can you keep a car culture going in the face of diminishing resources and increased competition? And how long?
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Re: Hybrid Technology Driven by $600/gallon fuel?

Unread postby FoxV » Tue 16 May 2006, 09:28:11

Nothing like getting the millitary's budget to fund research like this. Certainly a lot more productive then offering a "prize" that only covers 1% of developement costs.

This sort of thing is always good for creating spin-offs into the civilian world. The only thing is that anything truely revolutionary, the military holds from the public for 5 to 10 years (basically until its obsolete or replaced).

I'm also glad to see they're starting with electric research and not fuel cells.
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Re: Hybrid Technology Driven by $600/gallon fuel?

Unread postby Bleep » Tue 16 May 2006, 12:06:59

FoxV wrote:I'm also glad to see they're starting with electric research and not fuel cells.

Very telling about the hydrogen economy and what the government really thinks about it.
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GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 09:41:22

"General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image."


http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/ ... ood-press/
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby skeptic » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 10:38:33

TommyJefferson wrote:
"General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image."


http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/ ... ood-press/


The Confederacy of CEO Dunces, or stupid old white men...

Well Bob, if my company was $300 BILLION in debt on a market cap of $22 billion I dont think Id have quite such a smug smile on my face.

The reason Toyota are buliding hybrids now, is because theyve looked 10 - 20 years down the line and dont like the look of what they see coming. It's called investing in appropriate technology for the future, and building market share in anticipation. Your vision doesnt seem to extend past the end of your no doubt crisply starched shirt collars...

Bob, your final comment about ethanol convinces me that you are a complete ignoramus. I despair for American big business. Suggest you take all managers over the age of 50, line them up against a wall and hand them their P45's without a golden parachute. They deserve a lot worse.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby Fergus » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 10:52:43

skeptic wrote:
TommyJefferson wrote:
"General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image."


http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/ ... ood-press/


The Confederacy of CEO Dunces, or stupid old white men...

Well Bob, if my company was $300 BILLION in debt on a market cap of $22 billion I dont think Id have quite such a smug smile on my face.

The reason Toyota are buliding hybrids now, is because theyve looked 10 - 20 years down the line and dont like the look of what they see coming. It's called investing in appropriate technology for the future, and building market share in anticipation. Your vision doesnt seem to extend past the end of your no doubt crisply starched shirt collars...

Bob, your final comment about ethanol convinces me that you are a complete ignoramus. I despair for American big business. Suggest you take all managers over the age of 50, line them up against a wall and hand them their P45's without a golden parachute. They deserve a lot worse.


Anything that helps or eleviates oil/gas issues and allows us more time to figure something else out is not a bad thing. So it creates more issues in disposal issues? Atleast we can buy some time to extend our way of life, if not our life itself.

I read all the time how this and that wont make a difference, but if it helps us get through the rough period to a breakthrough, doesn't it deserve consideration. Not everything thats 'not good' is actually 'bad'. Right? I mean to read some responses you have to wonder are pple pulling for the final blow to be landed right on the mouth of civilization.

I personally dont wish to see the human species exstinct orr near exstinction. Iwould like to consider we are intelligent enough to figure a way out of the mess we so unintelligently thought through.

Sure we are caught with our pants down, but instead of just standing there freezing, why not just pull our pants up and move on with life? I mean an extra 3 years of shale oil is still 3 years of time to figure out something while we burn through that. Am I wrong. It cant be a totally hopeless situation where anything we do (provided thats not the wrong thing to do) will make no difference.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby SoothSayer » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 11:13:25

The Confederacy of CEO Dunces, or stupid old white men...

Hmm - almost every major CEO I have met has been VERY VERY bright and VERY driven. I don't think the problem lies at the top.

From my experience it lies with the thin layer of highly paid senior managers just below the CEO. They are very often Yes-men (or often Yes-women) who care nothing for the company but only about money.

Suggest you take all managers over the age of 50, line them up against a wall and hand them their P45's without a golden parachute. They deserve a lot worse.

Again, it's not the age which counts .. it's the role within the company.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby Slowpoke » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 11:17:53

Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5, which is very difficult."

Ha. Pull the other one, it's got bells on. The Fiat-built 1.3l 90hp multijet engine meets Euro IV standards without additional catalysers. Slap a DPF on it and it'll meet Euro V standards.
What Lutz is actually saying, imho, is that instead of putting money in the pockets of an Italian and a French (Peugeot-Citroen, or PSA, the main producers of DPF's) company he'd rather put them into his pockets and take a match to the place before Renault-Nissan and Toyota(-PSA) pull a Ribbentrop-Molotov on him and his cronies.


The 'presumption of innocence' vanished in GM's case back in the 50's along with the US's rail network.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby NEOPO » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 11:38:54

Sorry Fergus but you sound like an addict who is about to run out of drugs.
Some of us just cannot imagine going without I suppose.

Really - you seem to go from doomer to cornucopian in 0.6 seconds.

"to get us through to a breakthrough" ?
Cornucopian

As if some tech fairy is waiting for us on the "other side" so we can extend our period of unsustainable and cancerous growth further so as to make the inevitable decline far worse.

Soothsayer - You seem to have some sort of faith in the system.
Do you really believe that these people will do the right thing regardless of the bottom line?

If they can make no profit then it does not matter and they will not do the right thing which has been shown time and time again.

Altruism does not mix well with Capitolism.

We all know that diesel engines last alot longer then gasoline or other and as was recently discovered ethanol is not as good as bio diesel yet this guy likes ethanol!!!

Right brain - left brain - no brain.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby Kingcoal » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 12:18:45

What is the EROIE for a typical hybrid? From what I've read, they don't tend to get any better mileage than a standard model on the highway. Personally, I think that we are seeing the decline of the internal combustion engine. It is an inefficient pollution producing machine. What's next? Possibly some kind of electric, though the technology isn't quite there yet.

The best description of GM I've heard is that it is "a health insurance provider which funds itself with vehicle sales." GM needs to declare bankruptcy, free themselves of their liabilities before anything else.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby aflurry » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 14:55:25

Fergus wrote:Anything that helps or eleviates oil/gas issues and allows us more time to figure something else out is not a bad thing. So it creates more issues in disposal issues? Atleast we can buy some time to extend our way of life, if not our life itself.

I read all the time how this and that wont make a difference, but if it helps us get through the rough period to a breakthrough, doesn't it deserve consideration. Not everything thats 'not good' is actually 'bad'. Right?


except that not all of these conclusions are that clear.

if hybrids encourage the continued use of petroleum consuming vehicles in cases where say bicycles could be used, then they divert more of the remaining petroleum to personal transport, and help create a situation in which not only is our discretionary usage in peril, but our essential usage (industry, heating, etc.) is as well.

lack of personal transport may be severely limiting, but it is not life threatening. if we focus on making personal transport possible up until the last minute, we damage our ability to attend to more fundamental issues.

if personal transportation is made more efficient, we will rely on it longer and have less oil leftover when it finally does collapse.

if we instead use the time to make more essential areas less petroleum dependent, the personal transportation issue will work itself out with carpooling, busses, trains and bicycles, and the vital uses will be less distressed.

let the car die its rightful death.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby coyote » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 15:11:40

Kingcoal wrote:What is the EROIE for a typical hybrid? From what I've read, they don't tend to get any better mileage than a standard model on the highway.

I did nearly three hours of freeway driving yesterday, and my mpg guage is currently sitting at 46.0 mpg. That's better than most anything else on the road, some deisels and cycles aside. When I made a 500 mile trip I pulled into town well into the fifties. I've read all kind of stuff about hybrids not being all they're cracked up to be -- but I know what my experience is at the pump, and it's a lot less traumatic than the norm. I'm glad I've got it, and when oil rockets past $100 and beyond I'm going to be really glad. As long as I remember to keep up my theft insurance. 8)
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby Fergus » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 16:00:29

Just trying to be optomistic here. But in truth, I do fluxtuate from depressed doomer to happy go lucky cornicopian. I just dont know enough facts and everytime I read something, it clicks into place or knocks something else out of place. Just trying to cut through crap and get to the meat ot the issues. FACTs. there hard to find.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby Kingcoal » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 16:34:56

coyote wrote:
Kingcoal wrote:What is the EROIE for a typical hybrid? From what I've read, they don't tend to get any better mileage than a standard model on the highway.

I did nearly three hours of freeway driving yesterday, and my mpg guage is currently sitting at 46.0 mpg. That's better than most anything else on the road, some deisels and cycles aside. When I made a 500 mile trip I pulled into town well into the fifties. I've read all kind of stuff about hybrids not being all they're cracked up to be -- but I know what my experience is at the pump, and it's a lot less traumatic than the norm. I'm glad I've got it, and when oil rockets past $100 and beyond I'm going to be really glad. As long as I remember to keep up my theft insurance. 8)


What model do you own?
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby aflurry » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 18:32:36

Fergus wrote:Just trying to be optomistic here. But in truth, I do fluxtuate from depressed doomer to happy go lucky cornicopian. I just dont know enough facts and everytime I read something, it clicks into place or knocks something else out of place. Just trying to cut through crap and get to the meat ot the issues. FACTs. there hard to find.


ya. and i didn't mean to come off like some know-it-all jerk or anything....

optimism sure does sell though. and things got especially confusing when companies realized that they could sell people things by taking advantage of their good intentions.

"sure, i want to buy a product that will help humanity." but all they hear is "i want to buy a product."
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 22 Jul 2006, 19:14:46

I have yet to see a decent life cycle analysis of a hybrid. This makes me very skeptical about the embodied energy and the true life-cycle energy use.

Never the less, anyone who thinks ethanol is doing anything good has clearly got a screw loose.
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Re: GM admits Hybrids are just a P.R. Stunt

Unread postby emailking » Sun 23 Jul 2006, 01:34:46

Kingcoal wrote:
coyote wrote:
Kingcoal wrote:What is the EROIE for a typical hybrid? From what I've read, they don't tend to get any better mileage than a standard model on the highway.

I did nearly three hours of freeway driving yesterday, and my mpg guage is currently sitting at 46.0 mpg. That's better than most anything else on the road, some deisels and cycles aside. When I made a 500 mile trip I pulled into town well into the fifties. I've read all kind of stuff about hybrids not being all they're cracked up to be -- but I know what my experience is at the pump, and it's a lot less traumatic than the norm. I'm glad I've got it, and when oil rockets past $100 and beyond I'm going to be really glad. As long as I remember to keep up my theft insurance. 8)


What model do you own?


I'd like to know that too. I want to buy a hybrid before the year is over.
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