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THE Hybrid Transportation Thread pt 2(merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Hybrids have no future?

Unread postby Dezakin » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 14:50:36

TomSaidak wrote:I have met Elon Musk. Nice and really bright guy, but very focused on what he is attempting. I wish him all the success in the world.

I do not know that BEV can be done from a standing start. The first issue is that there are only 35 million tons of proven reserves for lithium. Of that reserve, 25 million tons of it are in either China or Russia. Can you say LiPEC?

I can say log normal distribution.
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Re: Hybrids have no future?

Unread postby Gerben » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 15:09:17

Hybrids are a good way to experiment with electric vehicle technology while electric cars are not feasible yet. I don't think the road to electric vehicles is to go all-electric now. It's good to experiment with electric cars, but it's just not good enough yet to get more than a niche market-share. Hybrids can help obtain the volumes required to lower prices and create a pull for technological development.
Hybrids have a pretty good future imo. Hybrid technology is also used in demonstration FC vehicles. Hybrid technology can work well with all kinds of new technologies that can boost efficiency, such as the use of thermo-electric materials and solar cells.
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Re: Hybrids have no future?

Unread postby vaseline2008 » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 17:54:00

TomSaidak wrote:The first issue is that there are only 35 million tons of proven reserves for lithium. Of that reserve, 25 million tons of it are in either China or Russia.

There is much dispute (just like with oil) as to how abundant this resource is.

The Saudi Arabia of Lithium
William Tahil, the founder of Meridian International Research, a technology consultancy in Martainville, France, has argued that there simply isn't enough economically recoverable lithium on the planet to support the auto industry's ambitious plans. Tahil estimated that only 4.4 million tons of the world's lithium resources can be extracted without prohibitive cost, a supply he believes will be quickly exhausted if lithium-ion batteries become a staple of next-generation cars.

Tahil reserves particular skepticism for SQM. The company states that it has already discovered 5.7 million tons of lithium in the Salar de Atacama and that only 45% of its lake-bed claim has been explored. But Tahil, who is not a geologist, scoffs at that assessment; he believes that the brine starts to run out below 130 feet under the salar.

But there is another guy:
R. Keith Evans, a geologist who has worked in the lithium business since the 1970s, has been Tahil's most vehement critic. In a rebuttal to Tahil published in March, Evans pegged global reserves of lithium carbonate at 165 million tons. He also argued that if demand spikes as anticipated, higher prices will make it cost-effective to extract lithium from clay and wastewater.

"Well, geez, it's only the 33rd most abundant element in the world," says Ener1's Gassenheimer. "We're quite certain the world will not run out of lithium."

As for China and Russia having all the good stuff...

Global & China Lithium Carbonate Industry Report, 2008-2010 (Updated Version)
China is one of the countries with the largest lithium reserves in the world. China's proven lithium reserves (converted into pure lithium) have reached 3.35 million tons, meaning China ranks the third in terms of salt lake brine lithium reserves and ranks the fourth in terms of lithium ore resources. China's prospective reserves of lithium resources will be more substantial.

What is the truth? Who really knows...here is a nice report on the subject matter...
World Lithium Resource Impact on Electric Vehicles
One interesting quote:
Future lithium extraction methods may use sea water as the source. Scientist at Saga University estimates that globally, seawater contains an estimated 230 billion tons of lithium. Current research is being done in this area by Saga University's Institute of Ocean Energy, Japan. None of the resource estimates discussed use sea water as a source for their analysis. The potential environmental impact of Li mining in the oceans is still unknown and the current technology is not economically competitive and is not expected to mature enough in the short term.

Oh by the way, I have stated in previous posts, the Volt hybrid technology is not new, it's 100 years old! Modern locomotives have been using Diesel-Electric tech since the 1900's.

IMO, hybrids are the next gen because of the battery issue and also because we have such a large gas station infrastructure already in place. Once battery tech + infrastructure is "up to speed", only then will it replace oil. But with PO just around the "corner", I'm not so sure if we will ever see it happen.
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread (merged)

Unread postby TomSaidak » Sun 22 Feb 2009, 17:34:03

The whole battery issue may end up being moot inway. Nascars rules for Formula 1 cars for this upcoming season requires kinetic energy recovery systems (read Flywheels). This company Flybrid Systems has one they claim stores 60 kwh equivalent. My Prius battery pack is only about .8 kwh. This upcoming racing season will let us know if they are ready for prime time.
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread (merged)

Unread postby yesplease » Sat 28 Feb 2009, 15:29:21

Hi Tom, I think you confused kW with kWh. According to the site the energy available is 400KJ, which is .11_kWh. That said, the 60kW power output, and probably similar input, is great for racing since it can provide a ton of power for a short period of time coming out of turns.
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Fusion Hybrid sets gas mileage record

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Sun 10 May 2009, 19:17:08

cool stuff:v 8)

http://www.lvrj.com/drive/44579377.html
Code: Select all
Logging [b]1,445.7 miles on a single tank[/b], a driving team that included NASCAR Sprint Cup star Carl Edwards, who was so impressed with the car he bought one, and "hypermiling" expert Wayne Gerdes, recently spent 69 hours and $37 driving a bone-stock Ford Fusion Hybrid to set a new record for fuel efficiency.
Last edited by TheAntiDoomer on Mon 11 May 2009, 06:59:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusion Hybrid sets gas mileage record

Unread postby ki11ercane » Mon 11 May 2009, 00:25:34

The fossil fuels used and damage to the environment to make the battery and the car is still more than if you drove a highly efficient gas only car. The energy used to mine the raw materials for the battery (nickel and lithium) and refining those raw materials into the battery is still the problem and when the fuel efficiency and damage to the environment is calculated into the equation of less gasoline used in the hybrid car, the hybrid car doesn't come out on top. The biggest problem is the battery doesn't last as long as the car. Replacing it compounds the problem because if you use the car for more than 4 years, within 4-6 years, you need a new battery.

The other problem is for you to actually save money on gas using the hybrid, gas has to be over $12.00 a gallon at today's inflation rate. With it hovering at around $3.00, you will never recover the additional cost of the hybrid card vs. gas savings. Right now the hybrid card is an energy savings myth and is part of the "Green Marketing Scam." It ranks up there with Oprah's and U2's Red Program. We got used to $4.00 US a gallon ($1.47 CAD per litre) prices in 2008. When they come back, it still won't make a difference in people's attitude.

What need to happen is this:

Gas has to be more than 4 times what it is today. At this time there is no motivation to go mainstream electric in driving. People really don't give a shit about the environment. They care about their wallet. Right now it's SUV Party Time and will remain so until gasoline is permanently above $12.00 a gallon, and I mean "forever," not for 10 months then back down to $2.00 again. Or the cost of a hybrid car has to be the same as the gas model or the gas model has to be forcibly removed from the equation.

Battery technology will have to improve (and it will) to more than double what it is right now. If we see battery drive distance double and the need to replace them every 4-6 years double as well, Hybrid cars will finally have a net gain over a fossil fuel only car. Another issue is battery weight. That has to be cut in half to reduce energy use on itself. Batteries are on the horizon which are lighter and re-charge in seconds. This leads onto my next point.

Electric only cars will make more sense as the cost to the environment and the use of fossil fuels charging them up on a grid system will be less than consuming gasoline in a car.

I'd put "drive cars less" in the equation but for the average sheep that's about as obtuse as speaking Klingon.

It's the same problem with wind and solar power. Fossil fuels still have to be expended to make the panels and the turbines, install them, etc. The net gain is negligible. Again technology has to improve in these areas more for it to make a real difference. In those areas, we have to enter a "green energy cloning process" where non-fossil fuel processes are making non-fossil using energy tools.

It's hysterical applause. We've past the tipping point on cheap readily available fossil fuels, economic stimulation to make technological advances sooner rather than later, and the environment is irrecoverable unless humans go extinct.

Keep cheering.
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Re: Fusion Hybrid sets gas mileage record

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 11 May 2009, 02:01:52

Is it cold fusion or just the old fashioned hot kind?

If they added dilithium crystals to the mix I might be impressed. :razz:
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Re: Fusion Hybrid sets gas mileage record

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 11 May 2009, 07:35:32

A recently released Environmental Protection Agency certification rates the Fusion at 41/36 miles per gallon (city/highway), making it America's most fuel-efficient midsize car. The tank carries 17.5 gallons of gas and Ford set its initial range at 700 miles.



WHAT A JOKE!

WTF? My old Geo Metro could get 60 mpg.


This car got great mileage in 1966. :lol:
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Re: Fusion Hybrid sets gas mileage record

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 11 May 2009, 09:26:34

$20,000 base sticker price. Add a few items such as freight and a/c and you're at $22,000 fairly quickly.

My Yaris cost $13,000 total. For the $9,000 difference I can buy a lot of gas. And I'll probably get better mileage too.

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Free Plug-in Hybrid Refueling (for how long?)

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 15:00:19

Was on my way back from my parents and stopped at a rest area on I-64 in Virginia and saw this complimentary refueling station.


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Re: Free Plug-in Hybrid Refueling (for how long?)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 15:11:07

Free plug-in refueling will last until the first of the "uber-rich" comes along driving his new $100,000 Fisker electric car built in Finland with 500 million US taxpayer dollars given to Al Gore........and the rich guy needs a charge but has to get in line behind some little guy who is using up the free plug in with a cheapo old prius, and a hippie on an electric motorcyle, and a little old lady with an electric golf cart.

The rich guy will get bored after six hours of waiting, will complain to Al Gore that his Fisker is friggin useless without a recharge, and It won't take long until the price goes to $50 a recharge then.

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Re: Free Plug-in Hybrid Refueling (for how long?)

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 17:03:35

Plantagenet wrote:Free plug-in refueling will last until the first of the "uber-rich" comes along driving his new $100,000 Fisker electric car

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By the time the "uber-rich" are driving that POS rather than a real car, we will be down to a global population of a few hundred million. I think there are other threads discussing how long it will be before that occurs.
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Re: Free Plug-in Hybrid Refueling (for how long?)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 20:16:44

dinopello wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Free plug-in refueling will last until the first of the "uber-rich" comes along driving his new $100,000 Fisker electric car

Image


By the time the "uber-rich" are driving that POS rather than a real car, we will be down to a global population of a few hundred million. I think there are other threads discussing how long it will be before that occurs.


Get real. That's not the $100,000 Finnish made Fisker electric sportscar that Al Gore is building for the uber-wealthy with $500 million in US taxpayer support.

Thats the crappy electric golfcart that grandma and grandpa taxpayer will be driving.
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Re: Free Plug-in Hybrid Refueling (for how long?)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 28 Sep 2009, 20:21:13

Here's a similar deal for hybrids that is coming to an end:

Right now you can drive in the car pool lane in California if you drive a hybrid.

Its gonna stop.

solo drivers in hybrids to be booted from car pool lanes
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Re: Free Plug-in Hybrid Refueling (for how long?)

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 29 Sep 2009, 21:15:02

Really? Because VA has been closing its rest stops to save money.
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread pt 2(merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 11 Jan 2014, 01:56:00

Ford said its hybrid sales will top 80,000 this year, almost triple the 2012 total. By May, the automaker had beaten its previous annual best, achieved three years ago.

Keeping the hybrid gains going will be a challenge in 2014, as C-Max sales momentum slowed after Ford restated its fuel efficiency rating in August. Since the company cut the rating by 4 miles (6.4 kilometers) per gallon to 43 mpg, the C-Max has had its three worst sales months since September 2012, when the model debuted in the U.S.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-3 ... odels.html

Apparently Hybrids have broken out of the new and untrusted category in peoples minds and are now thought of as just another option for a fuel efficient car.
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Re: Fusion Hybrid sets gas mileage record

Unread postby lasseter » Sat 18 Jan 2014, 00:49:36

ki11ercane wrote:The fossil fuels used and damage to the environment to make the battery and the car is still more than if you drove a highly efficient gas only car. The energy used to mine the raw materials for the battery (nickel and lithium) and refining those raw materials into the battery is still the problem and when the fuel efficiency and damage to the environment is calculated into the equation of less gasoline used in the hybrid car, the hybrid car doesn't come out on top.


Right you are. These hybrids should have never left the R&D labs, mass producing them just to satify the delusions of a few greenies was just sending the wrong message, again.

Why the hell we can't just remove all the crap from the roads and replace it with 100kg carbon-fibre shell electric cars I don't know. Yes, actually I do know why we don't. And know that it will never happen this side of the next darkage. But I for one am going to riding an electric bicycle in a few years from now. It still chews up lithium and all the rest in it's construction, but not much :)
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread pt 2(merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 11 Apr 2017, 02:27:37

AP wrote:Ford says hybrid police car catches bad guys, saves gas too

DEARBORN, Mich. (AP) — The next time the cops chase you down for speeding, they could be driving a fuel-efficient gas-electric hybrid.

Ford Motor Co., which sells more police vehicles in the U.S. than any other automaker, says it will offer a police pursuit version of the hybrid Fusion midsize sedan, in response to requests from cities nationwide. The new car, with its 2-Liter four-cylinder engine and 1.4 kilowatt lithium-ion battery, is expected to get 38 miles per gallon of gas in combined city-highway driving. That's 20 mpg more than Ford's current police car, the Taurus police interceptor.

The hybrids won't be as fast as the Taurus with a 3.7-Liter turbocharged V6, but Ford expects it to be quick enough to earn a pursuit rating when tested later this year by the Michigan State Police and Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, the first hybrid to earn that honor. To get a pursuit rating, cars have to perform well in acceleration, handling, braking, top speed and ergonomics and make the list of cars that the Michigan and Los Angeles agencies would buy.

When the throttle is held down for five seconds, the car will go into pursuit mode, using both the electric motor and the gas engine for maximum performance, Ford said. The company also says the car will be durable for tough police duties.

Police cars spend much of their days idling by the side of a road, and that's where the hybrid has a true advantage, Ford said. The gas engine will shut off at idle with the battery handling the electrical load for flashers, radios and other items. It will restart to recharge the battery.

Ford said at $2.50 per gallon for gas, the hybrid would save a police department $3,877 per year in fuel costs per vehicle. The price of the hybrid, available in the summer of 2018, isn't being released just yet.

Ford was to unveil the police car Monday with press conferences in New York and Los Angeles. One already has been outfitted to look like a Los Angeles police cruiser.

While big-city departments might be most interested in the fuel savings, the cars might also be appealing to small departments.

Thomas Korabik, chief of the 10-officer North Muskegon, Michigan, Police Department, said his city spends about $22,000 per year on gasoline for four cruisers and would be interested in cutting that in half.

But he wonders if the Fusion is big enough inside to carry computers, radios and other equipment. Many departments have switched to SUVs to handle the equipment, said Korabik, who also is president of the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police.

"Anytime you can save money it is good," he said. "I'd want to see the car first and see how it would hold up."

Todd Soderquist, Ford's chief engineer for the Fusion Police Responder, conceded the car is smaller than other cruisers on the outside. "Internally, you'll be surprised at how comparable they are," he said.

____

This story has been corrected to show that the hybrid police car will be available in the summer of 2018 instead of the fall.


https://apnews.com/295bbfe0f9f64fbea758 ... es-gas-too
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread pt 2(merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 16 Apr 2017, 12:15:10

Tanada wrote:
AP wrote:Ford says hybrid police car catches bad guys, saves gas too


https://apnews.com/295bbfe0f9f64fbea758 ... es-gas-too


This is interesting. It illustrates the fact that hybrids are viable for a WIDE range of vehicles, until EV's are truly ready for prime time and mass adoption.

And PHEV's can fit this category. There is a 2018 Porsche E-hybrid (supposedly available summer 2017) which I would love if I were willing to spend $100,000ish on a car.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/pors ... -ev-range/

Not that I would spend $100,000 on a car, or even $50,000 used, but here's a solution that would offer most city drivers a no-gasoline city solution, and a virtually supercar performance outside the city for those that want it.

If a super-car manufacturer can do this, surely all "normal" ICE's should be able to do this (with less cost and less performance, of course). But I guess most won't until gasoline gets expensive again.
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