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THE Hybrid Transportation Thread pt 2(merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Hybrid sales plunge as demand keeps rising

Unread postby f2tornado » Sun 22 Jun 2008, 07:16:22

3aidlillahi wrote:What's all of this talk about the expensiveness and the delaying in obtaining of a hybrid? I was able to find one very cheap from a local guy.

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Gotta love those fuel-efficient hybrids.


You can actually purchase a hybrid bicycle. The model below costs around $2100. It has power assist up to 70 miles on a Li battery charge. If something like that could get 200 miles on a charge I'd seriously consider visiting the folks more often.

Giant Brand Hybrid Bicycle

My mountain bike has about 15k miles on it and is beginning to show significant signs of wear. I'll be getting an upgrade this summer. I live just about a mile from my office and usually take the bike even when the outide temperature is well below zero (gotta love North Dakota).

Hybrid cars are not really any better than a basic Toyota Corolla when on the freeway. Save the Prius for the city dwellers and statement makers and buy a Corolla until market conditions favor an electric vehicle purchase. My only fear is demand for such vehicles will be too high for production to keep pace just like the current hybrid situation.
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Re: Hybrid sales plunge as demand keeps rising

Unread postby MarkJ » Sun 22 Jun 2008, 08:55:06

pasttense wrote:Lots of people will buy a used gas guzzler (including a Hummer) if the price is right--and it doesn't mean they are stupid either.


Yep. Plenty of people including myself, family friends and customers are shopping, but prices are still way too high. Even the 5 & 6 vehicle households aren't selling their used boats, RVs, SUVs, trucks, campers, snowmobiles, PWCs and quads at enough of a discount to peak our interest. Many of the people that have paid off or paid cash for their extra vehicles and toys will hang onto them rather than sell them at a substantial discount. Since they're not driving them as often, or driving them as many miles per trip, their cost of fuel, maintenance and repairs are down substantially.

We see a lot of very low mileage second hand vehicles and toys with low hours for sale, but they want big bucks for them. Most of the cheaper trucks, SUVs and toys I've seen are either too old, have too many miles or they're in rough shape.
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Re: Hybrid sales plunge as demand keeps rising

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Sun 22 Jun 2008, 09:09:38

You can actually purchase a hybrid bicycle. The model below costs around $2100. It has power assist up to 70 miles on a Li battery charge. If something like that could get 200 miles on a charge I'd seriously consider visiting the folks more often.


Technically, I already have a hybrid bike (hybrid of a road and mtn bike).

That's pretty cool. I've seen electric "bikes" before but I don't think they are like that. One of the problems of not having cars is that many people are disabled and need automatic transportation. That's what electric bikes have the potential for, for many people (not all) that are disabled. For people that are in the in-between stages, this hybrid's an option. But for most that are under 40 or even 50 with better nutrition, there's little reason to not have a "regular" bike, except maybe extended trips (which will be phased out quickly).

It'd be very interesting if you could achieve speeds of like 20-25 miles per hour on this thing though. Then if you have a 20 mile or so commute to work, you could ride this in and it'd only take about an hour or so extra per day. The speeds might allow you to ride on the highways where there are less obstacles and hills and much better pavement. Then just recharge the bike when you're at work. But for 50-70 mile commutes like for many people (my father), this is just not feasible.

I wonder if the batteries need to be replaced and how expensive they are, if so. But otherwise, that's not too expensive for a bike, considering that it's just started production (relatively). That price could be dropped to under $1500 at a higher production rate which is only a few hundred more than road bikes.
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread (merged)

Unread postby saveamerica » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 22:07:36

The country will move quickly to small cars, hybrids, electric, local small electric vehicles, motor scooters, bicycles, and jackasses. Those people that are totally broke will have to walk. Massive wind power and plug in hybrids will get us out of this mess if the lobbyists don't block wind production tax credits.

Car companies that don't go very small will go belly up. Toyota will become the dominant care maker worldwide. Chrysler will probably go belly up. They have no viable electric vehicle strategy.

Hopefully large houses will go the way of the dinosaur. People need to buy energy star appliances, and use cf lightbulbs. Homes should have solar and wind power as soon as possible. I have already seen many people using bikes for errands.

People need to overinsulate their real estate and zone houses to close off unused rooms.

I don't know what we are going to do with all of these gigantic SUVs and trucks. Maybe just sell them to other countries that still have cheap gas. It seems there is already gas rationing going on. Four of us have been limited in the amount of gas we can buy with reasons like: its for identity theft security, it is a bank card limit, or your card is not working.

Folks things are messed up, and America needs to get efficient real fast. We bought a 4 cylinder hybrid, I got baskets on my bike for errands, and overinsulated the house. I also went with low flow shower heads and did the whole house with cf bulbs. We are going solar on the roof and plan to plug the car into the panels. Mabye even put a wind turbine in the back yard next to our huge garden we planted. We all need to conserve and fast!!!
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread (merged)

Unread postby skiptamali » Tue 30 Sep 2008, 19:27:29

So it appears as if the auto & power industries are gathering to discuss obstacles to the plug-in hybrid vehicle that keep popping up in this thread.

Executives from the transportation and power generation industries are meeting in Portland in October to "deliberate the technical and financial obstacles and develop solutions during a "charrette" workshop." Personally, I have to say thank *&%#* RMI got these two groups together to work on the issue. My hopes are that there will be some dialogue, not just one industry talking AT the other about what is needed from their own vantage point.

Call me crazy, but I think this aggregation and (hopefully) subsequent collaboration of public and private utilities + automakers could be something for the government to mandate. We've seen where the pathway leads if no one intervenes- think wasteful SUVs, because that's what demand dictates.

Opinions?
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Hybrid sedan: Karma

Unread postby vampyregirl » Sat 04 Oct 2008, 23:31:48

www.fiskerautomotive.com

The Karma is an interesting design. A plug in Hybrid sedan with solar panel roof. Sleek design. It will retail for US$80k. First 100 to be delivered in 2009 to pre order customers. Fisker plans to later establish a dealership network in the US and sell 15k cars per year.
Fisker Automotive is a joint venture between Quantum Technologies and Fisker Coachbuild. Fisker has designed cars and aftermarket parts for BMW and Aston Martin and currently designs custom sportscars such as the Tramonto and Latigo CS.
Quantum Technologies is an alternative energy company who design and produce alternative fuel systems. They have worked with GM and Advanced Lithium Power and designed propulsion systems for the aviation industry.
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Re: karma

Unread postby mos6507 » Sun 05 Oct 2008, 01:16:45

It looks like a great car and it's cheaper than the Tesla roadster while offering the range of a plugin vs. a BEV but I'm not sure what their longterm goals are. A luxury class vehicle is not going to be much of a game-changer.
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Re: karma

Unread postby Don35 » Sun 05 Oct 2008, 07:01:51

mos6507 wrote:It looks like a great car and it's cheaper than the Tesla roadster while offering the range of a plugin vs. a BEV but I'm not sure what their longterm goals are. A luxury class vehicle is not going to be much of a game-changer.


Yeah. I sure can't afford it!
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread (merged)

Unread postby skiptamali » Wed 08 Oct 2008, 20:26:43

Here are the updates to the PHEV charrette in Portland this week:

Live From PDX: Blogging the PHEV/Grid Workshop

Big Issues, Big Brains

The second article briefly discusses the issues surrounding plug-in charging at night. If the number of people owning & charging these vehicles during off-peak hours climbs into the thousands in the next 10 years, what kind of grid strain are we looking at? Can our grid handle this in its current state of organization?

I'm thinking not so much. It's probably about time that we invest in smart grid systems, and there are plenty of companies willing to push you their model, whether for residential, business, or industrial use. How much would we have to invest in our grid system to be able to accommodate the additional draw of PHEVs? Is this a necessary move that's better tackled sooner rather than later? If homeowners don't have solar, wind, geothermal of their own, is burning coal and nuclear a better answer for the environment? I don't necessarily believe in 'clean coal...'

Thoughts anyone?
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread (merged)

Unread postby yesplease » Wed 08 Oct 2008, 21:02:31

skiptamali wrote:The second article briefly discusses the issues surrounding plug-in charging at night. If the number of people owning & charging these vehicles during off-peak hours climbs into the thousands in the next 10 years, what kind of grid strain are we looking at? Can our grid handle this in its current state of organization?

I'm thinking not so much. It's probably about time that we invest in smart grid systems, and there are plenty of companies willing to push you their model, whether for residential, business, or industrial use. How much would we have to invest in our grid system to be able to accommodate the additional draw of PHEVs? Is this a necessary move that's better tackled sooner rather than later? If homeowners don't have solar, wind, geothermal of their own, is burning coal and nuclear a better answer for the environment? I don't necessarily believe in 'clean coal...'

Thoughts anyone?
The grid can handle thousands probably millions of cars no sweat. EVs on average would probably add ~5kWh per person per day. Current consumption is about 12-13kWh per person per day, but lets assume 10kWh since it's a nice round number. At 10,000kWh per household per year, and about 100 million housholds, residental stuff requires about a trillion kWh per year. Add pure EVs of affordable size and this would increase this by ~.5 trillion kWh, so with total U.S. production at ~4 trillion kWh we would need ~10-15% more electricity. Currently the grid is only utilized at about half capacity, so adding 12%, especially since it's off-demand, would be no problem in terms of the grid's ability to transmit the requisite energy. Here's what the grid typically looks like during the entire day. Odds are we could tack on another ~30-40% in terms of off-peak transmission and be fine.
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Re: THE Hybrid Transportation Thread (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Wed 08 Oct 2008, 21:07:33

We're charging our car right now. It's trickle charging, like it does most nights.

We have regular cars, and a little solar/electric NEV. Great fun.

www.sunnev.com
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Re: karma

Unread postby mMiddleton » Thu 23 Oct 2008, 15:06:57

And also ... I just love the word 'Karma'
Cheers :-D

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Re: karma

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 23 Oct 2008, 17:13:16

$80K!?!?

Let's see. According to wikipedia, the US had 250.8M passenger vehicles at the end of 2006. At $80K apiece, the new fleet would cost $20T.

Dandy!

Let's see something else. The '08 Prius sells for ~$21K, and thus a fleet of Priuses would cost ~$5.3T.

Shooting from the hip, let's say the new fleet will cost $10T. Almost our national debt.

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Hybrid prototypes

Unread postby vampyregirl » Sat 25 Oct 2008, 11:18:55

The Infiniti Hybrid is expected to debut in 2010. It will be capable of 120 km/h on battery power alone. not sure about the range.
The 2010 Prius will have a lithium ion pack to give it better electric only range.
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Re: Hybrid prototypes

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sat 25 Oct 2008, 12:22:04

MSRP?
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
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Re: Hybrid prototypes

Unread postby vampyregirl » Sat 25 Oct 2008, 12:25:38

I haven't heard yet what the MSRP will be.
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Hybrids have no future?

Unread postby vampyregirl » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 08:09:56

Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla believes hybrids are a red herring and that is why his company declined to design one. He believes purely electric or purely gasoline makes a better car. The Prius for example has an underpowered gasoline engine and a limited electric charge.
Tesla will begin selling their all electric Model S sedan in 2011. It will retail for $60k making it much cheaper than their Roadster prototype. It will have a range of 240 miles and in California which has a special rate for electric cars will cost only $5 to charge. It will have onboard chargers.
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Re: Hybrids have no future?

Unread postby centralstump » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 09:05:13

Hybrids were a response to the notion that people wouldn't drive underpowered cars like the pure electrics at the time. I think that notion has changed.

I own one, but I can't afford a Tesla now either.
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Re: Hybrids have no future?

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 10:12:28

Tesla is not the only game in town and is ultimately beholden to what its customers want, not what Elon Musk thinks we want.

From what I've seen, the Fisker Karma is an altogether better vehicle than the current Tesla. If the Model S ever comes out, it might have a price advantage over the Karma, but then the Volt may undercut it (assuming GM survives).
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Re: Hybrids have no future?

Unread postby TomSaidak » Mon 29 Dec 2008, 13:35:42

I have met Elon Musk. Nice and really bright guy, but very focused on what he is attempting. I wish him all the success in the world.

I do not know that BEV can be done from a standing start. The first issue is that there are only 35 million tons of proven reserves for lithium. Of that reserve, 25 million tons of it are in either China or Russia. Can you say LiPEC?
Ignoring political issues, that is only enough lithium to build 875,000,000 BEV passenger cars and light trucks. If done as PHEV's, you get about 6 times as many vehicles. On the other hand, even using LIPO's would give us several decades to find replacements. BEV's would also require a fairly substantial infrastructure. To recharge it in 10 to 15 minutes requires a power outlet that can handle 432kwh. At best, using my old electric stove outlet, I get 11kwh in my home.
The other side of the problem is that it takes about 2 years to build a battery factory in China. Their quality control, well, frankly sucks is just too kind a word. Tesla right now has to test each individual battery cell, then hand solder the cells to make up the packs. That is a large part of the cost for their cars ATM.
We also have to build some combination of electrical generation and infrastructure to handle BEV's. PHEV's will cause some headaches, but no where near as much as at 11kwh, my home can charge two PHEV's in an hour. During off peak hours.

Hybrid Technology has quite abit of room for improvement:

Version 1.0 = 1 kwh or less battery pack = 40/44 mpg (highway/city), Honda Civic
1.1 = Version 1.0 plus if you keep the vehicle at a complete stop for 3 seconds, the gasoline engine turns off = 45/48 mpg, Toyota Prius (I regularly get 51 mpg on the highway in hilly California).
2.0 = PHEV, commonly touted figure is for 40 mile range all electric, which means about 72% of us use little or no gasoline.
3.0 = High Compression gasoline engine, another 15% or so increase in mileage, Honda Civic now gets 46/50.6 mpg in HEV mode.
4.0 = Free Piston Engine, hard to judge exactly what kind of mileage this would get. Instead of a shafted ICE engine, you have a single magnetized piston slapping back and forth in a double cylinder wrapped in a conductor. Just the act of dropping the standard transmission and going to an electric drive train gives about a 40% improvement in mileage. If the free piston, by dropping the shaft in the engine gives a similar boost, then we are talking about mpg in the range of 60 to 70 mpg.
As for anemic power, the addition of ultra capacitors largely removes that problem by providing a large boost to power. Electrical drive trains CAN deliver power - the Tesla Roadster can do 0 to 60 in under 4.0 seconds. That doesn't sound too anemic to me.
A BEV may ultimately be where we want to head, but I suspect that may take a couple of decades to get to. In the meantime, PHEV's can lead the way to get there, IMHO. :)
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