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The Greenland Thread

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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Cog » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 08:11:29

And you will kill everyone who doesn't hold Mother Earth as sacred. Tell me you won't.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 08:36:41

Cog wrote:And you will kill everyone who doesn't hold Mother Earth as sacred. Tell me you won't.


Certainly part of the reason you are drawn to this site is that you recognize on some level that we are collectively killing ourselves if we don't learn to self regulate our consumption and population. We know your position that is clear that as long as everyone else dies except you and your tribe than that is ok. That is not the point though, who you want dead or who I am willing to kill :)

It's closely related to how one manages ones personal finances. You have shared how you honor frugality and sustaining yourself economically. A set of external consequences will shift that position you have to including sustaining yourself ecologically as well. In due time, if not you then your progeny. The day will come when sustaining yourself ecologically will be the best way to preserve your wealth. We aren't there yet.

In the same pragmatic way that Wallmart for example distributes so efficiently its product chain. The only thing missing is holding mother earth as sacred as you do your stock portfolio.

By the way, when did I suggest killing anyone? The correction comes external of human agency.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 09:32:11

Don't bother with cog...he's just part of the outermost, crustiest, most rigid and brittle part of your onion...sure to fall away first. :)

But he does do a good job of representing what your cultural evolution, if that's an appropriate term here, is up against. He has been exposed to cogent arguments here for years now, yet he and a few other continue to cling to their withered belief system.

I think the real 'lesson' will come when/if people are again in relatively small, relatively isolated communities, where pretty much all consumption is perforce local. In that situation, you really don't make it for very long unless you learn quickly (within a very few generations) to live within your ecological means.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Cog » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 10:03:20

Seems to me we are living within our ecological means right now. Those energy slaves we work so diligently to dig out of the ground, continue to do useful work and sustain the population that we have. Ecological constraints don't mean the same to a human as they do the beasts of the field.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 12:16:00

Again, cog provides the valuable service of manifesting for us the deep-seated anthropo-exceptionalism (if I may coin a term) that sits near the heart of most modern delusions.
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Record July Temperature

Unread postby jawagord » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 12:35:36

Record low for North America that is -33C.

http://www.khou.com/news/local/ice-maki ... /455525240
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 12:44:08

Yes, Virginia, there are going to be new records set both on the cold and the warm side for quite some time to come. That's the nature of weather.

But as the climate has shifted, there have been many more hot records broken than cold, especially so in the last two decades or so.

But as long as there is still snow, there will be some damn fool congressman throwing it around stupidly pretending that this proves anything about anything.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby jawagord » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 17:39:51

Even the doomer websites are picking up on the near record snows and cold temperatures in Greenland. Now it seems there might be no net loss of ice mass this year. I will have to amend my 15,000 yr melting calculation to 15,000 + 1 years!

..........this year has been noticeably different. It all started in October, when big snowstorms “really loaded Greenland up,” Jason Box, a glaciologist at the Geological Survey of Denmark and Greenland, said. “That really preconditioned this year for low melt because it thermally insulates the darker ice below.”

Previous research by Box using ice cores — long cylinders drilled out of the ice sheet that let scientists sample hundreds of years of ice layers — showed that in the past, snowfall has increased over the ice sheet as temperatures have risen.

The snow could, however, balance out the year’s melt, Box said, with the ice sheet ending up with no net loss of ice for the year — the first year that will have happened in two decades.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/desp ... ting-21643
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby M_B_S » Thu 27 Jul 2017, 06:47:52

@ jawagoard

https://www.ecowatch.com/nasa-glacier-m ... 08803.html
Image

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasa-d ... -greenland

A new NASA study finds that during Greenland's hottest summers on record, 2010 and 2012, the ice in Rink Glacier on the island's west coast didn't just melt faster than usual, it slid through the glacier's interior in a gigantic wave, like a warmed freezer pop sliding out of its plastic casing...
****************
When you put pressure on the freezer pop (glacier snow) the warm glacier ice will move faster on the melting water film threw the ocean.

More here

http://climate.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... enland.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 072374/pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 069666/pdf
http://nsidc.org/greenland-today/2016/1 ... in-review/
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby ozcad » Thu 27 Jul 2017, 12:32:52

Previous research ... using ice cores ... showed that in the past, snowfall has increased over the ice sheet as temperatures have risen.

I've wondered in the past whether increasing atmospheric humidity (from oceanic evaporation) could raise snow fall.
e.g. If ice sheet (north or south) air temps rose from -10C to -5C, almost all of the increased humidity would still freeze and drop out as extra snow.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby joewp » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 22:03:19

There's a Wildfire Burning in West Greenland Right Now | Climate Central
It’s not just the American West and British Columbia burning up. A fire has sparked in western Greenland, an odd occurrence for an island known more for ice than fire.

A series of blazes is burning roughly in the vicinity of Kangerlussuaq, a small town that serves as a basecamp for researchers in the summer to access Greenland’s ice sheet and western glaciers. The largest fire has burned roughly 3,000 acres and sent smoke spiraling a mile into the sky, prompting hunting and hiking closures in the area, according to local news reports.

There’s no denying that it’s weird to be talking about wildfires in Greenland because ice covers the majority of the island. Forests are basically nonexistent and this fire appears to be burning through grasses, willows and other low-slung vegetation on the tundra that makes up the majority of the land not covered by ice.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 15:26:34

Thanks for that link, joe. rs has picked up the story now, too:

https://robertscribbler.com/2017/08/09/ ... ent-121021
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Mon 14 Aug 2017, 17:48:43

From this picture of the Greenland ice sheet:

https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?p ... 7024486107

Could someone who is an expert tell me what I'm looking at here? (Looks scary)
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 14 Aug 2017, 18:31:01

I'm no expert, and I'm not sure exactly what it is you want explained here. I see clouds to the east, and icebergs calving off of glaciers along the coast. Is their something else you are wondering about? Some of that sea ice may also be washing down from the Arctic Ocean, I suppose.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Mon 14 Aug 2017, 19:38:22

It could be an optical illusion. But it looks to my untrained eye that the ice sheet has caved into itself. Looks like high ragged kilometer high walls around a collapsed dome in the middle....?
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dissident » Mon 14 Aug 2017, 20:19:18

Rod_Cloutier wrote:It could be an optical illusion. But it looks to my untrained eye that the ice sheet has caved into itself. Looks like high ragged kilometer high walls around a collapsed dome in the middle....?


That would be quite a catastrophe. It looks like the snow analogue of a dust storm to me. There must be ridges in this region that are hard to see on the previous images that produce the spectacular streamers of snow. It does look like a valley has opened up, but the seismic activity would have been very detectable.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Aug 2017, 20:48:30

It just looks like a weather front to me. Clear skies on the coast and off shore while a cloud mass obscures the ice pack further inland. The "valley" is just a thinner section of the clouds. Check the same location in a few days and the cloud pattern will be different and let you see what is clouds and what is ice covered land.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 15 Aug 2017, 09:52:46

I think vt and dis have the truth of it. Clouds over ice can be quite deceptive.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vox_mundi » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 11:06:59

Greenland Ice Flow Likely to Speed Up

Flow of the Greenland Ice Sheet is likely to speed up in the future, despite a recent slowdown, because its outlet glaciers slide over wet sediment, not hard rock, new research based on seismic surveys has confirmed. This sediment will become weaker and more slippery as global temperatures rise and meltwater supply becomes more variable.

Previous research has identified two possible mechanisms for controlling the speed of the ice flow. The first is self-regulation, which proposes that glaciers slow down at the end of the summer because large networks of channels drain water away at the base, increasing frictional resistance to ice flow. The second is to do with the soft sediments that recent research has shown underlie glaciers; in this model, changing patterns of water flow alternately weaken or strengthen the sediment, making it more or less slippery, and thus enhancing or decreasing the speed of ice flow.

The team's aim was to test the sediment theory for the first time using measurements on the ice sheet.

Their seismic observations confirmed that:
sediment played the key role in controlling ice sheet flow;
variability in meltwater supply controls sediment's slipperiness;
weakening of subglacial sediment leads to accelerated ice flow.

They conclude that:
The future response of the ice sheet to climate warming will be more complex than a simple case of the flow slowing down due to self-regulation
Understanding how widespread sediments are and how their properties change with meltwater supply is essential if we are to build up an accurate picture of future patterns of ice flow

"Greenland's margin has many outlet glaciers that act as fast conveyor belts of ice. Thousands of surface lakes act as taps that deliver meltwater to the ice base, turning it into a slippery bathtub. Because it is difficult to see beneath them we surmised until recently that the glaciers slip over hard rock, but we realise now that they often slip over sloppy wet sediments instead.

In a warming Arctic climate more ice will melt and make the sediments even sloppier and more slippery, so that fast ice flow can occur long into the future. This discovery leaves us concerned because we have so far accepted the exact opposite - that Greenland's icy conveyor would slow down."

Image
Modeled cumulative fluxes due to supraglacial lake drainages in the 2010 melt season.
(A) On 30 June, showing fluxes due to Lake F drainage (white circle). (B) On 5 July, showing drainages on 30 June (Lake F, white circle) and 3 to 5 July (pink circles). (C) On 10 July, showing drainages on 6 July (orange circles with white border) and 10 July (orange circles with black border). (D) On 17 July, showing drainages on 11 to 16 July (red circles with black border) and 17 July (red circles with white border). The gray box outlines the 6 km × 6 km area over which sediment strength and ice velocity were averaged in Fig. 5.


B. Kulessa el al., "Seismic evidence for complex sedimentary control of Greenland Ice Sheet flow," Science Advances (2017). advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/8/e1603071
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