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The Greenland Thread

Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 14 Jul 2017, 16:17:38

No one here gets out alive...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGHhqV_QhzE
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 14 Jul 2017, 18:28:43

Cid_Yama wrote:I don't know why you people keep on insisting it's a bottleneck. It's a black hole and no one is coming out the other side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26LYjMww0GY
But Cid there have been several bottlenecks over the ages and every time some group of species has managed to survive and carry on and none of the previous ones had the advantage of the intelligence levels that have been obtained by the human race.
If the crocodile and the ancestor of the Norway rat can survive a comet hit then I think the humane race has more then a fifty fifty chance against whatever comes next.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 14 Jul 2017, 19:38:43

Yeah, and I've been through a lot of rough times, therefore I will live forever!!

I like this kind of logic! :-D :-D
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 14 Jul 2017, 19:56:47

Bravo, Plant. Voltaire.

Just shows the heights to which man has climbed, only to be taken down by the lowest common denominator.

VT, Tobor went colder, not hotter. We are evolved for colder, and currently bouncing along the upper limit of warmer.

Not much warmer and we hit the point where we, and other mammals, cannot lose metabolic heat. Which means we cook in our own skins. Both Apoptosis and Necrosis. And we die.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 06:13:54

Cid_Yama wrote:Bravo, Plant. Voltaire.

Just shows the heights to which man has climbed, only to be taken down by the lowest common denominator.

VT, Tobor went colder, not hotter. We are evolved for colder, and currently bouncing along the upper limit of warmer.

Not much warmer and we hit the point where we, and other mammals, cannot lose metabolic heat. Which means we cook in our own skins. Both Apoptosis and Necrosis. And we die.

Over quite a area in the tropics perhaps but Canada and Siberia can stand quite a bit of warming.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby kiwichick » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 07:09:04

@ V ....correct me if i'm wrong ........but i'd thought I had seen a report......don't ask me where... that suggested everything out to 40 degrees either side of the equator could be very dodgy for humans.

ok , that doesn't include Canada or Siberia.....but does include most of the US, Southern Europe, most of the Middle East, most of China, all of India and Pakistan, most of South America, all of Africa and Australia.

that's quite a few very upset people
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 07:27:24

kiwichick wrote:@ V ....correct me if i'm wrong ........but i'd thought I had seen a report......don't ask me where... that suggested everything out to 40 degrees either side of the equator could be very dodgy for humans.

ok , that doesn't include Canada or Siberia.....but does include most of the US, Southern Europe, most of the Middle East, most of China, all of India and Pakistan, most of South America, all of Africa and Australia.

that's quite a few very upset people


In equatorial regions you have highlands, coastal areas close to cooler ocean currents that will represent micro climates within this widespread temperature rise that will create pockets of kudzu ape survivors. This will be refuge populations that will then reseed territory when conditions permit.

Just a few dozen feet below the surface subterranean temperatures remain a constant and comfortable 57 degrees year round. Kudzu Apes will take refuge from the mid day heat in this very limited real estate. As temperatures rise we will retreat deeper into these subterranean habitats and with enough time we will evolve into a pink and blind grub like mammal. We will become fungi feeders like leaf cutter ants. At night we will rise to the surface gathering organic material and bring this down to cultivate our fungi.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 08:53:54

Coastal areas will be tricky, with constantly rising seas punctuated by ever-more-extreme storms/stormsurges. On top of that, there will likely be nasty stuff coming out of the oceans.

Is it this? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 28384/full

"Role of hydrogen sulfide in a Permian-Triassic boundary ozone collapse"
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Cog » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 10:44:33

Except the expected hurricane intensity and frequency never occurred at you climate change doomers predicted. But lets forget all that as its an inconvenient truth.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 10:45:02

As always let me point out that we seldom use sufficiently defined language.

Some say everything will be terrible (90% of humans will die)
Some say everything will be terrible (100% of humans will die)
Some say everything will be fine (10% of humans will survive)

Gets confusing as to who thinks and means what.
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The End, your only friend......

Unread postby Whitefang » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 12:11:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSUIQgEVDM4

This is the end, beautiful friend
This is the end, my only friend, the end
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes, again

Can you picture what will be, so limitless and free
Desperately in need, of some, stranger's hand
In a, desperate land

Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane, all the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah
There's danger on the edge of town
Ride the King's highway, baby
Weird scenes inside the gold mine
Ride the highway west, baby
Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake, the ancient lake, baby
The snake is long, seven miles


Not to search for the spirit is to seek death which is nothing.
Don Juan/Carlos C.


That black hole waiting for us might motivate some to turn our attention to our spiritual side, reduce our self importance and pity, use our human options, a rebirth before our death.
Personal power, freedom just around the corner, at our fingertips.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 12:19:42

I expect between 3% and 80% of humans to survive the climate flip to hothouse. The percentage is greatly dependent on people doing thing today to mitigate future difficulties. The more short sighted we are and the less people we let move pout of the dying zone before the flip the greater the death toll will be. Alaska today has a very low population density and really so do the northern tier of the USA states (north of say 35 degree latitude) and effectively all of Canada. A great many people have chose to settle in the southern deserts and Florida since the easy access to A/C at a price they could afford.

I was struck by the fact that the mountains near Washington D.C. all had a covering of 'summer houses' as close to the peaks as they could afford to buy the land. The reason for this is simple, mountains mean cooler, thinner, less humid air. In the world before A/C it was how the wealthy escaped the hot humid summer weather in July/August/September.

China's infamous ghost cities could turn out to be the most brilliant move yet if the climate flip happens in the next decade. There they sit, new fully modern cities just waiting for people to move in, most of them at much higher altitude than the packed coastline cities that will be even more miserable after the climate flips, especially in the south of China. They also built the Three Gorges Dam which has created a massive fresh water reservoir at high altitude ensuring people living in the highlands will have easy access to water.

Despite racist views by some folks China has many excellent, even brilliant, engineers. Unlike the USA government building projects are run by engineers, not politicians. Sure politics plays a role, but it is not the main role and therefore the projects tend to be done much more consistently and well.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 12:52:56

I don't pretend to know for sure what the future holds, besides worlds of pain.

I challenge folks like Guy McPherson and his acolytes when they claim to know precisely when all humans will be wiped out. But I will also continue to challenge people who claim to have perfect knowledge that humans will not go extinct. Both are false certainties.

And for those interested, the predictions for quite some time now are that hurricanes are not likely to increase in frequency, since the extra energy in the system can also increase wind shear, which tends to cut apart forming hurricanes.

But when the storms do avoid being cut apart by wind shear, they are more likely to be more intense.

Some find such distinctions hard to understand, apparently, and so resort to mockery, which merely points up their mental deficiencies.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 14:14:25

dohboi wrote:
I challenge folks like Guy McPherson and his acolytes when they claim to know precisely when all humans will be wiped out. But I will also continue to challenge people who claim to have perfect knowledge that humans will not go extinct. Both are false certainties.


I agree. Hanging in the unknown is what our ancestors did all the time when disease and famine where ever present but never exactly predictable. We have lost the art of hanging in the unknown.

It has its advantages. You cultivate a sense of gratefulness for each waking moment.

After a few external consequences get the ball rolling we will learn quickly to live in the unknown once again. We can quickly get socialized and normalized with highly unstable external events. Before you know it we are there and it will become the new normal.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 17:15:07

"we will learn quickly to live in the unknown once again"

So you know for certain that we will live again in the unknown :) :) :-D :-D :lol: :lol: :o :o 8O

Your vision may be part of a possible future...but I see no guarantees.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 17:56:40

dohboi wrote:"we will learn quickly to live in the unknown once again"

So you know for certain that we will live again in the unknown :) :) :-D :-D :lol: :lol: :o :o 8O

Your vision may be part of a possible future...but I see no guarantees.


As we are discussing nothing is for sure but I think the nature of the external feedbacks coming our way will result in a high probability that our species will soon be living with more volatility. More unknowns. This will become the new normal probably for several hundred years. Our biosphere has been reliably benign for the past couple of hundred years. Reliably ignored. Soon that will change and there is a certain poetry in this. We will be forced to relate to our biosphere as an entity demanding respect. The fact that climate change consequences may last for hundreds of years provides us a multi generational opportunity to be repeatedly put into our place. This centennial consumption of humble pie will work on many levels. It corrects human overshoot bringing us down to a fraction of our current population. It corrects the current hubris of treating our planet like a toilet. A volatile biosphere requires and or imposes sustainability on to human agency.

We were never capable of ideologically evolving otherwise. It is the only pathway for us to evolve culturally under a sustainable paradigm.

The alternative is we perish.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 18:32:10

I also concur that certainties about the future are almost impossible and with regard to human extinction certainly impossible. We should though keep in mind that most mass extinction events on this planet were climate/greenhouse gas induced
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 20:20:43

Cog wrote:...the expected hurricane intensity and frequency never occurred at you climate change doomers predicted. But lets forget all that as its an inconvenient truth.


I suggest you try reading the scientific literature---its amazing what you find there. For instance, a recent paper in SCIENCE reported that:

While Atlantic hurricane frequency has been DOWN, intensity is UP. And in the Pacific both frequency and intensity are UP.

The physics involved in hurricane and typhoon formation are very complex, but the most important factor is sea surface temperature. And sea surface surfaces temperatures are going UP which will inevitably intensify the big storms.

sciencemag.org/content/1/4/e1500014

Abstract
Dominant climatic factors controlling the lifetime peak intensity of typhoons are determined from six decades of Pacific typhoon data. We find that upper ocean temperatures in the low-latitude northwestern Pacific (LLNWP) and sea surface temperatures in the central equatorial Pacific control the seasonal average lifetime peak intensity by setting the rate and duration of typhoon intensification, respectively. An anomalously strong LLNWP upper ocean warming has favored increased intensification rates and led to unprecedentedly high average typhoon intensity during the recent global warming hiatus period, despite a reduction in intensification duration tied to the central equatorial Pacific surface cooling. Continued LLNWP upper ocean warming as predicted under a moderate [that is, Representative Concentration Pathway (RCP) 4.5] climate change scenario is expected to further increase the average typhoon intensity by an additional 14% by 2100.

Cheers!

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---President Obama, 4/25/16
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 15 Jul 2017, 23:36:33

Thanks for that article, P.

Ibon, what we have seen already in places like the US South is that the religiously fundamentalist double down on their fundamentalism, holding prayer meetings to plead to Big Guy for rain during droughts/heatwaves. I'm sure there will be plenty more of such, and worse, idiocy (or shall we say...non-productive responses) going forward.

"The alternative is we perish."

Indeed.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 16 Jul 2017, 07:20:29

dohboi wrote: I'm sure there will be plenty more of such, and worse, idiocy (or shall we say...non-productive responses) going forward.


I would argue that it will only be through a shift of belief systems that we even have a chance in hell of one day living within a sustainable paradigm. It is like an onion. You have to peel away layers upon layers of impediments to get there. Yes, as you say, these impediments are ideological, religious beliefs, consumption culture, belief in progress. All of these layers have to be peeled back with consequences before you get down to a population responsive to the ecological damage that imperils them. This process is multi generational. But at the core is not just a secular set of beliefs, or just pure logical science. At the core there remains still ideology, religion, and those big questions of our place in the universe.

In the end it may very well be climate change that becomes our ally as perverted as this may seem for it represents the only educator out there with enough resilience and longevity to influence our culture's belief systems with the power of molding them toward sustainable practices. It is the only force out there that can deliver the humble pie that our civilization requires to turn this juggernaut toward long term sustainable survival. It educates and kills us off leaving a base line population ravaged but humbled.

Belief in many ways is more powerful than logic and science. Today we live with a set of beliefs that is suicidal to our survival. Science and logic has failed and will continue to fail to penetrate through this baggage of beliefs.
You know the humpty dumpty story..... all the kings horses and all the kings men could not put humpty dumpty together again. This is science and logic. All the thousands of climate change scientists could not put or impose wisdom into the crippled set of beliefs that are taking our collective humpty dumpty culture into the brick wall. We aren't going to fall off of it, we are going to ram into it.

If you deeply consider the failure of science in changing these ideological impediments that hold society hostage to the unsustainable status quo then you have to conclude that if there is a way to alter our course it is through working over the belief systems and not through pure logic or science. Secular science is not the answer. It is in the realm of spiritual values that the solution lies. Through holding our mother earth with reverence and holding her sacred. Believing in this spiritual awakening is absolutely delusional if you think this will rise on its own. It requires an external force, one so powerful that it can penetrate all those layers of impediments. Something that eclipses those impediments.

I don't think I will have the opportunity in my life time to see even the opening acts of this force. I remain a believer however in the Overshoot Predator as the only game in town that has even the remotest chance in altering this suicidal set of belief systems that are firmly embedded in our collective culture. And replacing them with a god consciousness holding our mother earth sacred.

How do we get there? Through being ravaged and plundered by climate change.

It will not be a gentle process.... ha ha (understatement of the century)

I accept anyone who claims this is all just a silly narrative in Ibon's head. It probably is. It is alot like religious belief which is my whole point.

Back to the onion. Our unsustainable set of beliefs today is wrapped in layers and layers of failed ideology. I can see a future when mother earth is held sacred and there will be many layers protecting this core set of values. Those layers will be a set of tenants, a set of beliefs and ideology, religious in nature, that will protect our planet instead of ravaging her.

Those layers will be laid down in the ruins of the correction coming our way.
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