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The Greenland Thread

Re: The Greenland Thread -Accumulation

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 23 Jun 2017, 17:24:23

jawagord wrote:The Danish Meteorological Institute who've been monitoring Greenland ice mass for the last 36 years show the snow/ice accumulation the 2016-2017 winter/spring was a record high, near 700 gigatons (GT). According to the Danes, accumulation has exceed melting every year on record, but with ice flowing to the ocean and glaciers calving off into the sea there has been a net loss of mass on average of 200 GT per year. At this rate Greenland's 2.5 million GT of ice will be completely gone in 15,000 years. Maybe we can hold off on the handwringing, sandbagging and dyke building for awhile?

http://beta.dmi.dk/en/groenland/maaling ... ss-budget/

So in your world, massive net losses in ice, reflected by rapidly receding glaciers, and the threat of significant SLR contribution from Greenland this century mean nothing?

Sounds like more denier trolling to me.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/ ... d-meltdown

Just because we don't know all the details yet, doesn't mean there isn't a problem -- we just aren't sure how severe it is. But big hint: this century isn't 15,000 years.
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Re: The Greenland Thread -Accumulation

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 28 Jun 2017, 16:19:06

Outcast_Searcher wrote: At this rate Greenland's 2.5 million GT of ice will be completely gone in 15,000 years. Maybe we can hold off on the handwringing, sandbagging and dyke building for awhile?


Dyke building? You want to build dykes? I think you you mean dike building. :o :lol: :) :-D

------------------------------------------

We're going to have to building dikes long before all the ice in Greenland melts--you just have to melt enough of Greenland's ice to start flooding low lying areas in major coastal cities. In fact, the dike building has already started.

Image
recently completed dike system built to protect New Bedford Massachusetts from coastal flooding

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---President Obama, 4/25/16
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 28 Jun 2017, 18:30:15

Yeah, I have a feeling those Dutch engineers are going to be doing a [i]lot[i] of business globally in the coming years/decades!
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 07:55:52

http://www.fasterthanexpected.com/2017/ ... face-melt/
Sunnier Skies Driving Greenland Surface Melt
Warmer temps=more evaporation = less condensation =less cloud cover=Sunnier Skies
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
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Re: The Greenland Thread -Accumulation

Unread postby jawagord » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 15:17:54

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote: At this rate Greenland's 2.5 million GT of ice will be completely gone in 15,000 years. Maybe we can hold off on the handwringing, sandbagging and dyke building for awhile?


Dyke building? You want to build dykes? I think you you mean dike building. :o :lol: :) :-D

------------------------------------------

We're going to have to building dikes long before all the ice in Greenland melts--you just have to melt enough of Greenland's ice to start flooding low lying areas in major coastal cities. In fact, the dike building has already started.


I did, a little humour for this otherwise saturnine thread? Dike building has been going on for centuries to combat land subsidence, river flooding, tides and storm surges, sea level rise is minimal. The point of my original post is Greenland accumlates more ice in the winter than melts in the summer, balance the equation before panicking over melting.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 15:58:21

New Bedford: welcome to the world we in S Louisiana have lived with for 250+ years. LOL.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby kiwichick » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 21:21:42

@ jawagord...... have you got a link to support your assertion that Greenland is acculmulating ice.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 22:12:24

+1
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby jawagord » Wed 05 Jul 2017, 13:50:09

kiwichick wrote:@ jawagord...... have you got a link to support your assertion that Greenland is acculmulating ice.


The link to the DMI is in my original post, I'll reference it again below. What I stated was winter accumulation is greater than summer melting and has been every year the DMI has on record. But with iceberg calving there is a net glacial mass loss, which over the last ten years (the warmest decade on record??) averaged 200Gt/yr., and at this rate it would take 15,000 years for all the ice to melt.

http://beta.dmi.dk/en/groenland/maaling ... ss-budget/

Here is their statement:

Over the year, it snows more than it melts, but calving of icebergs also adds to the total mass budget of the ice sheet. The calving loss is greater than the gain from surface mass balance, and Greenland is losing mass about 200 Gt/yr.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby kiwichick » Wed 05 Jul 2017, 16:55:39

@ jawagord......the historical evidence may show accumulation ......but for how much longer ??

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... w-research
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 06 Jul 2017, 11:39:47

http://beta.dmi.dk/en/groenland/maaling ... ss-budget/
Try this link.
Note that the chart and graph are in mm of water equivalent so the question of snow vs calving ice sheets is mute.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Azothius » Thu 06 Jul 2017, 12:46:36

Scientists grapple with the mysteries of Greenland's melting ice sheet


http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2017/07/06/Scientists-grapple-with-the-mysteries-of-Greenlands-melting-ice-sheet/4621499348169/

July 6 (UPI) -- Every year, Greenland sheds more than 250 gigatons of ice -- enough to fill the entire state of Texas with over a foot of water. Despite being one-tenth the size of Antarctica, Greenland's ice sheet is now the single largest contributor to sea-level rise. Even more worrisome, a string of recent studies suggest Greenland's meltdown is accelerating - troubling news for millions of people living in coastal areas.

Only a tiny fraction of Greenland's ice was predicted to be released this century, resulting in about 5 inches of sea level rise, according to the latest Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report. Because the ice sheet sits on bedrock, Greenland's thaw was expected to be slow and steady (unlike Antarctica's ice shelves, which are vulnerable to warmer water below). In the last few years, however, Greenland's melt has been anything but slow. And scientists aren't entirely sure why.

Warmer temperatures are a factor, of course. Greenland is about 3.6F warmer now than just a few decades ago. But that alone doesn't explain it, at least not fully. "It's not something that's predicted in any coupled climate-ice sheet model," said Jonathan Bamber, a researcher with the University of Bristol who uses remote sensing to track the movement of ice sheets. "None of them reproduce that dramatic acceleration in mass loss that we're seeing."

Across the island, in what's known as the Dark Ice Area of southwest Greenland, researchers are exploring a different cause of melt. The team led by the University of Bristol is looking at how microscopic organic growth on the ice can decrease the surface's albedo, or reflectivity. "We want to characterize how important that is and how it might change in the future," said Bamber, who is not part of the field expedition.

The rate of surface melt has been steadily increasing across Greenland since around 1995, but spiked during particularly hot summers in 2010 and 2012, when NASA satellites observed the thaw of nearly the entire surface of the ice sheet. The pulse of meltwater released was so massive it triggered slow-motion waves through the ice sheet, lurching glaciers toward the ocean.

The real worry now, Bamber said, is that as temperatures rise, Greenland's ice could become even more conducive to biological growth, setting off a dangerous feedback loop by darkening the surface and absorbing more heat. "The thing about Greenland is you've got a big area that's melting already, and as the planet warms that melt is just going to go up and up."
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dissident » Thu 06 Jul 2017, 19:49:49

The darkening of the Greenland ice sheet surface is not really news:

https://eos.org/opinions/what-darkens-t ... -ice-sheet

http://www.planetexperts.com/greenland- ... -bad-news/

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v7/n ... o2180.html

The bacteria must be finding a sufficient set of nutrients in the ice surface layer to multiply and contribute to the darkening. But ultimately it is these nutrient impurities with high visible band absorption characteristics that are driving the darkening. An effect that the studies are ignoring is compaction accumulation. You can see a similar effect as large snow mounds removed from municipal roads go from mostly white to a near black surface with the arrival of spring. The snow in these mounds is quite compact and becomes progressively more so as the ice melts. The reason for the darkening is that surface layers which melt away leave their load of detritus behind. The detritus is not blown off by the wind and does not evaporate, and does not diffuse into the melting mound interior; it just keeps on accumulating.

This accumulation effect is happening on the Greenland ice sheet as well. Each ice layer has a load of light absorbing contaminants but in relatively low concentrations (so the natural ice color is not black). But any progressive melt from the surface begins the accumulation process. Of course new dust and black carbon (from biomass burning and shipping pollution) deposition contributes.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 06 Jul 2017, 20:11:18

Azothius wrote:Scientists grapple with the mysteries of Greenland's melting ice sheet


http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2017/07/06/Scientists-grapple-with-the-mysteries-of-Greenlands-melting-ice-sheet/4621499348169/


Further down the story:
Unlike previous drill cores, which were taken near the middle of the ice sheet where the ice layers are the most stable, the EGRIP site is constantly moving. Even the camp itself - a maze of outbuildings and snow trenches, and a rudimentary airstrip - is sliding toward the sea at a rate of about 160 feet a year. That makes drilling challenging, said Svensson.

Lets see now. 250 miles from the coast to the center of the ice cap divided by 160 feet a year means their camp will calve off into the ocean in the year 10,267 more or less. It maybe a problem but it certainly is not my problem.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby kiwichick » Sat 08 Jul 2017, 07:39:36

@ v .......try looking up the meaning of exponential
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 08 Jul 2017, 09:43:37

Yes, many of our problems come from linear thinking in a non-linear world.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 09 Jul 2017, 08:57:05

kiwichick wrote:@ v .......try looking up the meaning of exponential

I know what exponential growth is and how to calculate it. Problem is there is no evidence showing Greenland ice melting is growing exponentially.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 09 Jul 2017, 10:15:59

It's the calving that can go exponential rather suddenly.

See top glaciologist on this phenomenon here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4oMsfa_30Q
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby chilyb » Sun 09 Jul 2017, 12:08:57

Hi vtsnowedin,

It maybe a problem but it certainly is not my problem.


Fortunately not everyone shares your sentiment!
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 09 Jul 2017, 13:14:10

dohboi wrote:It's the calving that can go exponential rather suddenly.

See top glaciologist on this phenomenon here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4oMsfa_30Q
God he has a whinny voice. I'd hate to sit through a five credit course with him. As I hear him he agrees with me on Greenland and is instead focused on west Antarctica where one ice sheet might (note Might) calve back suddenly and cause five to seven meters of sea level rise. He throws in enough cautions and cravats (I call them weasel clauses) to make sure he is never caught being totally wrong. In other words he doesn't know and is just making a good living talking about the possibilities. Nice work if you can get it.
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