THE Goat Thread (merged)

[Ferretlover]

'Spider-goats' start work on wonder web By Roger Highfield, Science Editor, (Filed: 18/01/2002):

A HERD of goats containing spider genes is about to be milked for the ingredients of spider silk to mass-produce one of nature's most sought-after materials.

Scientists have for the first time spun synthetic spider silk fibres with properties approaching the real thing, paving the way for their use in artificial tendons, medical sutures, biodegradable fishing lines, soft body armour and a host of other applications.

Webster and Peter, genetically altered goats unveiled today by the Canadian company Nexia, are the founders of a GM herd whose offspring will produce spider silk protein in their milk that can be collected, purified and spun into the fibres. Females will begin mass-producing spider milk in the second quarter of this year for a variety of military and industrial uses.

Spider silk has long been admired by material scientists for its unique combination of toughness, lightness and biodegradability. Dragline silk, which comprises the radiating spokes of a spider web, is stronger than the synthetic fibre Kevlar, stretches better than nylon and, weight for weight, is five times stronger than steel.

These incredible qualities are the product of 400 million years of evolution. Now spider yarn has been spun by the US Army and the company Nexia Biotechnologies of Montreal, marking a milestone in efforts to ape arachnids.

The work "opens up a lot of things on the practical level and on a research level," said Dr Randy Lewis, a spider silk expert at the University of Wyoming, Laramie. Dr Jeffrey Turner, President of Nexia, said: "Mimicking spider silk properties has been the holy grail of material science and now we've been able to make useful fibres.

"It's incredible that a tiny animal found literally in your backyard can create such an amazing material by using only amino acids, the same building blocks used to make skin and hair."

Spider silk is a material science wonder, "a self-assembling, biodegradable, high-performance, nanofibre structure one-tenth the width of a human hair that can stop a bee travelling at 20 miles per hour without breaking. Spider silk has dwarfed man's achievements in material science to date."

Today, in the journal Science, the scientists describe details of the production of different dragline spider silk proteins. First, they turned cells from cows' lungs and baby hamster kidneys into silk protein "factories" by giving them genes from two different species of orb-weaving spiders whose dragline silks have been documented to be among the strongest.

The silk proteins from one of these species were then spun from a solution in water to produce water-insoluble fibres of the spider silk, which the company calls BioSteel. The researchers found that the spinning conditions used were adequate to produce fibres that were one third the strength of natural spider silk but still good enough for microsurgery, for instance.

For about a century, people have tried to farm spider silk. Spiders can be coaxed to make it, but attempts to create "spider farms" have failed because of the territorial nature of spiders.

For the past decade, scientist have tried to spin their own yarn. They were successful in producing spider silk proteins in bacteria and yeast but these tended to form insoluble clumps inside the cells. Even when extracted, they could only be turned into worthless brittle fibres.

The Nexia team - inspired by the work of Prof Fritz Vollrath at Oxford University, now working in Kenya - used bovine and hamster cells that secreted silk proteins.

They concentrated these proteins in water, then extruded them through a tiny hole at the end of a syringe and into another solution of methanol, prompting the proteins to assemble into fibres that were lighter, yet tougher, than Kevlar and nearly as elastic as nylon.

By playing with the production conditions, or adding a second spider protein, they hope to achieve the flex of natural silk. "We and others have been working on spider silk for a considerable time and are thrilled finally to have the opportunity to spin synthetic silks and move the field towards real applications," said Dr Jean Herbert of Natick Soldier Centre.

Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2005.

[GD]

Spidergoat, Spidergoat,
Does whatever a spider ought
Spins a web, any size,
Catches thieves just like flies
Look Out!
Here comes the Spidergoat.

[EnviroEngr]

hope these things don't turn into Shelob!

[crude_intentions]

I can't help but think of the story of the Tower of Babel.
Man decided he was going to try and step into the realm of God and in the end all that happened was that civilazation itself was destroyed.
Just Something to think about

[BILL_THA_PHARMACIZT]

supposedly the webs are 5 times stronger than kevlar.....

you could stop a bullet with a vest the weight of a t-shirt.

[gg3]

Interesting. I wonder what the net energy requirements would be to produce goat-spider silk for replacement of steel in certain applications. That is, less net energy in than for producing steel...?

One application that suggests itself: a fibrous admixture for concrete, similar to the present-day "Forta-Fibre" and similar, but, obviously, quite a bit stronger.

Another: composites for aircraft, not only structural members but some of the surface components as well. Possible replacement for aluminum in certain roles.

Wind turbines! Added to the materials currently used to make turbine blades, could increase their performance under high wind conditions, extending the upper-limit of wind speeds in which the turbines can operate without needing to go into safe-shutdown mode.

Anyone care to speculate on other applications...?

[smallpoxgirl]

One application that suggests itself: a fibrous admixture for concrete, similar to the present-day "Forta-Fibre" and similar, but, obviously, quite a bit stronger.
Another: composites for aircraft, not only structural members but some of the surface components as well. Possible replacement for aluminum in certain roles.
Wind turbines! Added to the materials currently used to make turbine blades, could increase their performance under high wind conditions, extending the upper-limit of wind speeds in which the turbines can operate without needing to go into safe-shutdown mode.

Hmmm... can't think you would want a biodegradable fiber for any of those applications.

[gg3]

Smallpoxgirl: Score! You caught me on that one. How the heck did I miss the word "biodegradable" especially since it was repeated a number of times in Bill's posting? D'oh!

Good catch, thanks.

[CarlinsDarlin]

Forgive me if this is has been brought up before I'm sure it, like everything else has been discussed in one thread or another...

But, to those of you who raise dairy goats...

I've been offered a currently milking 2 year old Nubian doe, and her kid, a wether (also full Nubian) for $125. For both of them. I have to let the seller know this week, or the goats go the sale barn . I know its a heck of a deal price-wise, but I have other concerns. (they are not, to the best of my knowledge, registered) I am a complete newbie with goats - but I have raised sheep before. I've learned much through the mistakes I made with them (unfortunately), but there is much I need to learn, and could use advice.

First I have to see if it's possible economically for us. I need to know what other additional start up costs I'll have to pay, excluding building a shelter, at first.

For a temporary shelter, I'll have access to a barn my grandmother kept katadhin sheep in before she died in 1998. It's been a few years since any animals have been housed there, so it is in some need of minor repairs. But it's weather tight and made for animals about the size of a goat, so I think it will do fine for now. Though I'd rather have them closer to my house, we'll be able to house them there until we are able to build housing and put up fencing here. Grandma's house is about 1/4 mile down the road.

I'm assuming we'll keep them there until we're able to save up the money or scrounge the materials we'll need to build a shelter here. What are the requirements for goat housing? I've seen some very well done housing at http://fiascofarm.com/goats , but I don't have anywhere near the kind of money it would take to build such a structure, much as I might love to have one. So, what can I get away with for now (warm weather), that I could add to as needed when cooler weather approaches?
I want it definitely to be secure from predators, as I've had the unfortunate experience of dogs killing several sheep I had several years ago (at a different place). Any creative construction ideas to save money? (I'm thinking pallets )...

As for milking itself, what do I need for home dairying? I've read that you must use stainless steel. Is this true? If so, that seems like it would be an expense, as I don't have it at present. What other items are essential to have from day one? Any ideas of the cost? or, places to barter or get equipment cheaply?

Finally, what do you feed your goats, and what do you estimate that your monthly expense would be in buying feed, supplements, etc.

Sorry if I ask too much , but I've got to let this lady know if I want the goats in the next couple days... I'd really love to get them, but honestly don't know if we'll be able to afford to maintain them, even with the added benefit of the dairy we'll receive. I'd love for someone to convince me that we can .

Help??? (and thanks!!)
Kathy

[RonMN]

We had a goat when i was little, but darned if i know anything about milking them.

Personally i wouldn't jump into this if i were you...i don't know about "milking" but i do know it has to be done EVERY DAY (maybe twice a day with goats) and ya CAN'T miss one day!

Then there may be some kind of "process" to make the milk ok to drink...i've heard stainless steal as well, but i dont think that is all that much money...however the sterilizing of that pot every day could get to be a hassel.

We would also pay to store the goat for winter because what we had wouldn't cut it for a Minnesota winter for poor little raisen

I'm just saying...think before you leap! Maybe it'd be better to grow corn & trade it for milk & cheese.

[DomusAlbion]

I would say get these two.

My wife raised Nubians at one time and we will again once our homestead is established. The Nubian is a good general purpose goat that is mild mannered and calm. It's both an excellent milk goat and a good meat animal as well.

Herself wants to cross the Nubians with Boars as the Boar is a bit thicker and gives better meat.

[DomusAlbion]

Shannymara,

I've heard that llamas are also a good companion animal for goat and sheep herds and that they will protect them from coyotes.

[Pops]

Aha!

I wondered why there were llamas at the goat and sheep sale!

[ncgoatgirl]

Some questions I'd ask:
-Are they CAE-free? (You don't want to start a herd of dairy goats with a CAE-positive doe!)
-Why is she getting rid of them?
-How much milk does the doe give? I would also take a look at her udder, and see if you think it has the structure for long-term milk production.

$125 is a good deal, but it's not a fantastic deal, so make sure the doe is a decent one!

It sounds like you've got good shelter. Fencing would be a good thing to look at: if you're not fencing a huge area, I would use 16' long stock panels (I think in some places they call them hog panels). That's the only fence that keeps our Nubians in (or out)---though we have one doe who can jump them as gracefully as a deer!

Stainless steel is ideal for milk; for the milk from one doe, a stainless cooking pot would work fine. You will need to strain it, though.

Here's an excellent online resource: Hoegger's Supply Company
Also try eBay for supplies!

We feed our milkers whole corn, whole oats, sunflower seeds (in the hull) and sometimes alfalfa pellets. We are not, however, aiming for big production. You may want to find out what this doe is eating, and feed her that, gradually weaning her to whatever you want to be feeding her. And you'll want a mineral supplement.

[ncgoatgirl]

Oh---I forgot: the only way it is possible for us to keep goats (or any other small livestock) in these coyote-rich mountains is our Great Pyrenees-cross LGD. We were without one for a short while, and we lost goat kids, sheep (grown and lambs), and chickens (14 in one night!). We couldn't do it without Fionn---he may be the most valuable animal on the farm!

[DomusAlbion]

goat girl,

It would be very instructive to hear more of your experience with your goats. How does the dog take to the goats and the reverse? It looks like you keep nubians. How do you protect the things you want to keep growing, like your garden?

I would like to hear anything you can share. Thanks.

[CarlinsDarlin]

Are they CAE-free? (You don't want to start a herd of dairy goats with a CAE-positive doe!)
-Why is she getting rid of them?
-How much milk does the doe give? I would also take a look at her udder, and see if you think it has the structure for long-term milk production.

I've already asked . Yes, they are CAE-free. She's selling the doe and wether because she wants to get "show quality" animals, and though these are good animals (and she's a good milker, and gentle) she's not "show quality." I'm not interested in showing them - just having them here for dairy purposes. She gives about 6 lbs of milk a day.

Thanks for the other tips, and like DA, I look forward to hearing more from you!
Kathy

[ncgoatgirl]

I've already asked . Yes, they are CAE-free. She's selling the doe and wether because she wants to get "show quality" animals, and though these are good animals (and she's a good milker, and gentle) she's not "show quality." I'm not interested in showing them - just having them here for dairy purposes. She gives about 6 lbs of milk a day.

Sounds great! are you going to do it?

How does the dog take to the goats and the reverse? It looks like you keep nubians.

We put the dog in with the goats when he was a pup. He came from a farm that had goats, so he was familiar with them; the day we brought him home it was rainy, and he was a muddy, bedraggled, forlorn little guy. But we tried to harden our hearts, and we put him directly into the pasture the minute we got him home. The goats were off browsing somewhere, and he sat out on the boulder by the barn looking absolutely pitiful. When the goats finally showed up, he was ecstatic (much more so than they were!)---he bonded with them instantly---they've been "his" ever since. It took them a little longer to bond with him, but they did. If Fionn gives a certain bark, the goats hightail it to the barn immediately.

How do you protect the things you want to keep growing, like your garden?

The first thing we did when we moved to this farm was fence the goats out of the garden and the yard. We're lucky---we are on 85 acres (moving soon, however), surrounded by nat'l forest. So we don't actually fence our goats in---they're free to leave at any time!---we fence them out.

[Pops]

The Great Pyrenees I’m told, are best when never treated as anything other than a sheep.

There are lots of kennels in this part of the world; I told my wife that I would like a herding dog for my birthday, even though we only have a small place.

The donkey thing does have me in trouble again however – thanks Shanny, LOL! My wife has a thing about Eore and as we (following Kathy as always) were thinking of a milk goat, and it seems the suggestion of a Livestock Guard Donkey has attained a place on the budget sheet. Don’t know where the cattle dog fits.


BTW thanks to Kathy for the thread (prefix thing is perfect) and goatgirl for posting her experience - we'll certainly need it.

Livestock guard dogs (doesn’t consider donkeys that I can see) :
http://www.lgd.org/

[seahorse]

I'll chime in here bc I'm a big dog lover. If you are going to buy a dog for any reason, make sure you pick a breed suited for you climate! Most of the shepherding dogs originated in Europe, which is far cooler than most places in the U.S. For example, I live in Arkansas and have owned numerous mastiffs, which in theory are also a good flock protectors. However, the mastiff is not good in warm climates like Arkansas, and would suffer greatly if left outside in Arkansas heat and humidity to protect a flock. So, at least in my part of the world, a dog like a mastiff or even a long haired pyrenese would not fair well. Down here, a better dog for shepherding would be any of the typical hunting dogs, which have no love of coyotes - nor do pigs (pigs hate coyotes). I know farmers here use dogs like the Rhodesian Ridgback which is virtually impervious to weather extremes, insects, and very protective. Just, check out the suitability of the climate on a dog before you put them out somewhere in the hot sun.