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THE Glacier Thread (merged)

Unread postby frankthetank » Wed 11 May 2005, 11:18:31

You think PO is bad, think of what a sudden climate flip would do...Imagine Europe with a climate similiar to Canada. There is past evidence of sudden climate change. My fear is not global warming, but a scenario like this where a massive climate flips changes a once warm area///COLD!

...heres some more links...

http://www.weatheranswer.com/public...2_Gagosian_.pdf

http://tinyurl.com/bm8xv

http://tinyurl.com/7flbz

http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi...ruptclimate.htm

http://www.nature.com/nature/fow/010111.html

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/phod/acvp/...t_contents.htm#
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Unread postby SidneyTawl » Wed 11 May 2005, 11:27:28

katinkate,

your link didn't work. I was curious to see what he has. You can get some pretty good data from the NOAA web site. I watched that large pool of water move from the US across to Europe last summer. Gave England and Scotland some really chilly and violent weather. A question to the Woods Hole people came back with a reply that even though this was unusual, it would be more unusual if one formed during the winter months. Then she said she would be 'concerned".

Very chilly water invading sections of the coast has started to become almost common place up and down the eastern US seaboard. Last summer swimmers were kept out of the water in south Fla. New Jersey had some very cold water at the beginning of last summer. North Carolina's outer islands were being effected by cooler water. Last summer it would be colder on the islands than in a city like Raleigh. My dad lives there and he said the radio reported that it was because of the below average cold water around the islands.
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Unread postby SidneyTawl » Wed 11 May 2005, 11:40:00

Yep Frank,

I have been following the Gulf Stream scenario since the theory was floated about what 15 20 years ago. There wasn't evidence of it then. The researcher was trying to understand what caused the "little ice age". His theory was a shutting down of the Gulf Stream because of a large influx of water suddenly released into the atlantic from huge lakes in the northern hemisphere left over form the last glacial period. One day the walls let loose and all that water flowed into the gulf stream.

He said if enough non-saline water mixed with the ocean the lowering salinity would cause the flip. Hence melting ice could do it.

If the climate flips ( and people have as much trouble grasping this as peak oil) it would make Peak oil look like a cake walk. (The idea of Warming causing cooling is one most have trouble grasping).


However you put both of them together at the same time and a disaster of unprecidented puportions could happen within a very short time frame. Years down to even a few months, and yes in some locations it could be one or several days.
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Unread postby katkinkate » Wed 11 May 2005, 11:50:16

Yeah, I sometimes have a bit of trouble getting in, but if you try a couple of times it usually works, eventually. Just remember to scroll down to the bottom. They've linked several sites into the one page and the superstorm watch is at the bottom. They also have space weather, wild fires (USA only), worldwide earthquakes, Yellowstone monitoring, and St Helens monitoring stations.
Kind regards, Katkinkate

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Unread postby MagnoliaFan » Wed 11 May 2005, 11:57:32

frankthetank wrote:You think PO is bad, think of what a sudden climate flip would do...Imagine Europe with a climate similiar to Canada. There is past evidence of sudden climate change. My fear is not global warming, but a scenario like this where a massive climate flips changes a once warm area///COLD!


BINGO. That will create an international energy crisis. Currently, the Gulf Stream warms up the UK by +8C--there isn't enough energy production in that whole country to keep it that warmer if the Gulf Stream freebie were to suddenly stop.
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Melting Glaciers reveal Forests

Unread postby The_Virginian » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 05:24:56

yahoo
"But then came the summer of 2003, when record temperatures and lack of snow and rain accelerated the melting, exposing patches of rock, earth and tree trunks of long-gone forests in the middle of ski slopes. Seeking relief, Wintersport Tirol AG & Co, which runs four Tyrolian ski resort regions, contacted scientists from the AlpS alpine research center and Innsbruck University glaciologists."

Intresting that the Article on Global Warming cuts its own wrists in a vain attempt to show artificialy induced climate change. (Both "Pro-cold" and "Anti cold")

I do believe humans have some role in the environment, but there is a lot of evidence massive Global climate change has happned in the recent past, and will happen again...with or without us.
Last edited by The_Virginian on Mon 18 Jul 2005, 05:26:31, edited 1 time in total.
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 05:26:16

They find Forrest Gump down there?
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 05:27:24

And it's Tyrranus you dittohead!javascript:emoticon(':razz:')
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Unread postby The_Virginian » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 05:29:38

looking for a long lost buddy? [smilie=5crackup.gif]
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby The_Virginian » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 05:52:29

I_Like_Plants wrote:And it's Tyrranus you dittohead!javascript:emoticon(':razz:')

plant lover, NO it's not...not exactly...
tyrannus : tyrant, absolute ruler. link

and then on the Commonwealth Flag: link
(it's "tyrannis" on the commonwealth flag)

So we have 4 variations in this one thread about one latin word. Of course, grammar comes in, but so does the diffrence between Old/Ancient Latin and Middle Ages Latin, and not to mention "modern" Latin.

Latin Spelling variations: link

When will you shiesse filled cream puffs figure out spelling was not standardized untill the Devil incarnate "Webster" decided to fill you minds full of clap-trap? Get your head out of your Azz and stop trying to Kalifornicate folks with your lack of intellect.
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 06:34:02

OK that's right, it's sic semper tyrannus that was said as Lincoln got his. My apologies, the n's doubled not the r.

And I think you may not realize California has some awfully strong right-wing credentials back over history. A history of which as a 3rd generation native I am quite proud.

Popular t-shirt in Santa Cruz these days, white letters on black, "I KILL HIPPIES" hehe javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
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Unread postby The_Virginian » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 06:44:19

my retort has nothing to do with "right" vs. "left" (two hands of the same body!) My reply has to do with your name calling, and your need to feel superior that arises from a psuedo "inferiority complex" one that stems from the "put down" humour in Northern , and some western states. link
BTW, my mother has some very old roots in Kali as well, but I visited once, and it was enough to convince me the place is not "on balance."
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 08:41:44

You can write off almost all of Southern Cali, it's naturally a desert and pumping in water and illegal 3rd worlders has only made it worse. The city parts of northern Cali are not the wholesome places with wholesome laws they were say 50 or more years ago.

Someone needs to book one heck of a lot of one-way flights to India etc and bye-bye, you stay back there in India, Oh neighbor I have not talked to in 2 years and have no desire to, and I will agree never to go over to your miserable hole of a country, myself. And the same for the rest. Peak Oil is going to give us enough of a rough ride without a bunch of freeloading piggybackers from the other side of the world.

Get out of the cities and out into the small, northern towns, the ones that have been there a while and it's great. Go into a breakfast place and everyone speaks English. Fathers are there with their little kids and the kids are talking instead of screaming and trying to steal the saltshakers.

I should not pick on your spelling, I had a moment of weakness, I know well that phrase that was uttered as Lincoln got his just rewards and was used to seeing it spelled one way, but maybe it can be spelled either way. The main thing was the act not what was said I guess when all's said and done. :twisted:
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Hall of Flames?

Unread postby MicroHydro » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 12:38:53

Note to moderators, this thread could be moved to the Hall of Flames
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Unread postby The_Virginian » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 14:38:03

or we could keep it here and talk about how Glaciers melting and revealing old forrests is a catastrophe for the globe, or not... Maybe Austria will be a nice cozy place post peak? :)
Either way, Our Plant friend has not been flaming me in his last two posts, nor I him in my last two. unless you want to start with me. :lol: (just kidding)
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 18 Jul 2005, 15:25:50

So let's see if I get this right......"global warming" causes glaciers to melt exposing new forests which take up CO2 which causes "global warming" to slow down.............holy smokes substantiation for the Gaia theory at last!!! :lol: :lol:
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Latent heat of Melting Ice, applied to Global Warming

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 13:20:56

i am looking for an analysis which i would think already exists.

basically, about what happens when the ice-caps are melted, and
that heat is applied to the large volumes of atmosphere, biosphere,
the ocean, etc.

in short, it takes a lot more energy to melt ice than to raise the temperature of water by 1 degree. that is, right now, a lot of the energy of global warming is going into the conversion of H2O from ice to water. when the latent heat of melting is no longer available as a "heat sink", the rate of global warming will increase. very dramatically.

add in the ongoing release of methane from thawing permafrost and 2 things become clear -
* global warming wise, we're in deeper sh*t than we thought. it appears that not much of the analysis that has been done has factored in the heat of phase changes, e.g. ice to water.
* sitting around analyzing exactly how deep sh*t we're in is "kind of" a waste of time.

when i was an undergrad at fondrats i did an analysis for a geophysics class to calculate how much heat it would take to warm antarctic enough to raise the sea levels enough to submerge Los Angeles. got a B+. guess that prof. wasn't a big fan of LA either.

is that one of the upsides of global warming - the folks in South Central will find themselves sudden owners of beachfront property ?

anyway, can someone point me towards some existing analyses on this subject ? i emailed the suzuki foundation and one other group.

thanks.
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Re: Latent heat of Melting Ice, applied to Global Warming

Unread postby backstop » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 13:27:36

PF -

for a serious view and response to the issues you raise have a look here

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=267#more-267

regards,

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Re: Latent heat of Melting Ice, applied to Global Warming

Unread postby RonMN » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 20:12:44

You point out 2 very important points of escalating (and runaway) global warming...melting permafrost and warming rather than melting ice.

1 more thing you should add to that list is thermal expansion...it seems to me that all the calculations on sea level rise have been strictly to follow volume of ice melt...but as we know, things expand as they get warmer (even sea water).

If ocean temps rise 1 degree, sea levels rise X feet. (i don't know the exact calculation).

I would also guess that all the shifting water weight on the earths plates will cause some pretty serious earthquakes.

I agree...we're in deep deep chit.
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Re: Latent heat of Melting Ice, applied to Global Warming

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 12:08:29

thanks for the replies !

one thing about water - it is a unique category of material that, in part of its curve, does not expand as it gets warmer - it contracts.

what i'm trying to say is that, the heat input that the earth receives from the sun every day has gone partially into melting the ice caps. were they not present, all else equal, all that energy would go into heating the "biosphere" - the earth's surface, the oceans, the atmosphere, old people in France.

in other words, at some point, once the ice caps are sufficiently shrunken, temperature rise per year will increase - markedly. instead of rising at the rate of 1 degree per decade, (on the order of) 2 degrees per decade.

the reason i'm bringing it up - i read an article by involved scientists recently wherein they said, "oh, SH*T ! we forgot the huge amount of heat absorption that goes into melting ice".

example - take 2 cups of water & place them in the sunshine. put 2 ice cubes in each one. get the temperature down to about 32 F.

when the ice is all but melted, drop another ice cube in one of the cups.

the cup without the extra ice cube will be heated by the sun. come back in 15 minutes and it might be 45 F. the other cup, with the extra ice cube, will still be at about 32 F.

so ... what i'm looking for is an article or articles where "they" re-did the calculations - or an article or articles where "they" did in fact account for the phase change/latent heat of melting.
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