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THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Armageddon » Sun 06 May 2018, 19:27:27

It seems like every time demand gets close to supply, they raise the prices. Is this on purpose to cause demand destruction? Seems plausible
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 06 May 2018, 21:08:12

Armageddon wrote:It seems like every time demand gets close to supply, they raise the prices. Is this on purpose to cause demand destruction? Seems plausible

Assuming many suppliers and no collusion, a rational supplier will charge as much as the market will bear. If supplies are getting tight, that's a sign that the constrained market MIGHT bear higher prices, and for some sellers, testing that out might be worth it. If they're wrong, they might lose some short term sales and upset some loyal customers.

This is how markets with many suppliers and no collusion work generally. The interesting thing about the gasoline market is how easy it is for everyone (both buyers and sellers) to constantly compare prices in their market. Also, with a commodity, the competition is more pure than for differentiated products. (I don't much care which major brand of gasoline goes in my car since it runs fine on all of them. However, I DO care if my shoes fit well, so when I buy tennis shoes at Walmart, a good fit/comfort is more important than a couple of bucks difference in price. But if gas station X is a dime or two higher than gas station Y within sign reading distance, I'm going into gas station Y unless it's jammed.)

(Even with the internet, how many people scrutinize prices on the many things they buy so consistently? Doing so would take a fair amount of work).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 16 May 2018, 10:40:10

I don't buy premium grade gasoline but noticed at the pump that it is selling for $3.29 locally, which is a good spread from regular at $2.85!
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 16 May 2018, 12:05:29

Tanada wrote:I don't buy premium grade gasoline but noticed at the pump that it is selling for $3.29 locally, which is a good spread from regular at $2.85!

Everything I've read from reasonably credible sources says there is NO point to buying premium gasoline, UNLESS you have a vehicle (generally high performance) that specifically calls for it.

All the theories that you get better gas mileage from it, etc. are bunk, when objective testing is done.

Just one more reason not to buy a "high performance" sports car.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 May 2018, 13:14:17

Here we can get premium that does not have any ethanol in it. I buy it for the chain saws and lawn mower which don't do well with E10.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 17 May 2018, 13:56:07

vtsnowedin wrote:Here we can get premium that does not have any ethanol in it. I buy it for the chain saws and lawn mower which don't do well with E10.

Have you tested it?

I see various claims of "natural" gasoline, but most of the seemingly credible sites I find say that it is generally required to have ethanol in both regular and premium in the US, so I'm skeptical of unproven claims by gas stations.

There are test kits for ethanol via the internet, but they're relatively expensive, and I don't know how reliable they are.

I've also seen supposedly "pure" gasoline advertised in containers at totally outrageous prices, like $20 a quart or some such. Sounds like a total rip-off to me.

I just opt for a gasoline stabilizer like the Stabil product for my small engines like mowers, weed eaters, etc. I can find that easily in hardware stores. In my experience, they do VERY WELL with Stabil used according to directions, for years. I don't use any gas kept over the winter in such engines, just to be safe, and I don't know the shelf life of Stabil, but a $10ish supply treats a LOT of gasoline with ethanol. With Stabil, I just use regular gasoline.

Before I used Stabil, my carbs, etc. on mowers were frequently getting eaten alive.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 17 May 2018, 14:52:29

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Here we can get premium that does not have any ethanol in it. I buy it for the chain saws and lawn mower which don't do well with E10.

Have you tested it?

I see various claims of "natural" gasoline, but most of the seemingly credible sites I find say that it is generally required to have ethanol in both regular and premium in the US, so I'm skeptical of unproven claims by gas stations.

There are test kits for ethanol via the internet, but they're relatively expensive, and I don't know how reliable they are.

I've also seen supposedly "pure" gasoline advertised in containers at totally outrageous prices, like $20 a quart or some such. Sounds like a total rip-off to me.

I just opt for a gasoline stabilizer like the Stabil product for my small engines like mowers, weed eaters, etc. I can find that easily in hardware stores. In my experience, they do VERY WELL with Stabil used according to directions, for years. I don't use any gas kept over the winter in such engines, just to be safe, and I don't know the shelf life of Stabil, but a $10ish supply treats a LOT of gasoline with ethanol. With Stabil, I just use regular gasoline.

Before I used Stabil, my carbs, etc. on mowers were frequently getting eaten alive.

Someone who has obviously never used a chainsaw should not be weighing in on a subject he/she knows nothing about.

Stabil prevents oxidative damage. Ethanol ruins o-rings in two stroke engines
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 17 May 2018, 15:54:20

pstarr wrote:Someone who has obviously never used a chainsaw should not be weighing in on a subject he/she knows nothing about.

Stabil prevents oxidative damage. Ethanol ruins o-rings in two stroke engines

What part of lawn mower do you fail to comprehend, re the conversation?

What part of "small engines" which tend to be fouled by ethanol over time do you fail to understand?

My lawn mower maker, Toro, specifically recommended using a fuel stabilizer for my current mower, made in 2015. But I guess you know more than their engineers.

A quick Google search yields:

https://www.toro.com/fuelfacts/

Add fuel stabilizer to the fuel the day you buy it.


When you can prove I know nothing about lawn mowers, be sure and get back to us.

When you can prove my experience with lawn mowers of the same brand before and after using Stabil wasn't completely different, feel free to expound on your theories.

Let's hope they're better than your economic theories, BTW.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 18 May 2018, 04:57:34

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Here we can get premium that does not have any ethanol in it. I buy it for the chain saws and lawn mower which don't do well with E10.

Have you tested it?

I see various claims of "natural" gasoline, but most of the seemingly credible sites I find say that it is generally required to have ethanol in both regular and premium in the US, so I'm skeptical of unproven claims by gas stations.

There are test kits for ethanol via the internet, but they're relatively expensive, and I don't know how reliable they are.

I've also seen supposedly "pure" gasoline advertised in containers at totally outrageous prices, like $20 a quart or some such. Sounds like a total rip-off to me.

I just opt for a gasoline stabilizer like the Stabil product for my small engines like mowers, weed eaters, etc. I can find that easily in hardware stores. In my experience, they do VERY WELL with Stabil used according to directions, for years. I don't use any gas kept over the winter in such engines, just to be safe, and I don't know the shelf life of Stabil, but a $10ish supply treats a LOT of gasoline with ethanol. With Stabil, I just use regular gasoline.

Before I used Stabil, my carbs, etc. on mowers were frequently getting eaten alive.

The local fuel company has Canadian connections so gets the ethanol free gas from their. They are large enough and reputable enough that I don't doubt their assertion that the top grade in ethanol free. I do add stabilizer to that gas if it is going to set in a tank for months. (backup generator.) Paying fifty cents a gallon more to save a $500 chainsaw or any of the other small engines is cheap insurance.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby baha » Fri 18 May 2018, 06:24:08

Gas? Ethanol? In yard equipment? Come on Dudes, get with it.

This was all hashed out 10 years ago. And TPTB keep making poor decisions. Ethanol is not good for any engine. It causes rubber to swell and deteriorate, and corrodes any plain steel. And lowers the MPG.

I lectured my sister about this the other day. She is trying to grow grass and needed a new mower. I told her don't even consider a gas mower. Lithium power is the way to go. There are several brands of cordless electric mowers with 40 vdc and up. They are as good as any gas mower. She bought one and said one charge took care of her and my niece :) Then plug it in and when it's charged all you have to do is hit 'start'.

They have chainsaw's and pole saw's. They all use the same battery pack and no FFs!

This is an electric choice you can make that will make your life easier :) I'm still lusting after that Ryobi...
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The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby baha » Fri 18 May 2018, 06:37:11

As for the price of gas...have you noticed it is all coming together in favor of EVs?

Just like we have been saying. Investment in oil exploration has been down, the surplus is running out, and the price is going up. If the current trend continues, the price of gas will reach $4-5/gallon around 2020 right when the new EVs become available.

Meanwhile lithium powered hand tools have changed the construction industry. You don't see extension cords much anymore, you see battery chargers.

If you're paying attention :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 18 May 2018, 11:06:53

BAHA please try and stay on thread topic.

Meanwhile around these parts if you want ethanol free gas about the only place to get it is the Marina's. Boaters pay premium prices to get 'pure' gasoline because the ethanol blends suck up the humidity if the boat is stored weekdays and only used on weekends robbing you of performance.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 18 May 2018, 11:51:01

The reason for this discussion:Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007
Title II
Title II contains the first legislation that specifically requires the creation of biomass-based diesel fuel, which is the addition of renewable biofuels to diesel fuel. To be labeled as Biomass-based Diesel, fuel must be able to reduce emissions by 50 percent when compared to petroleum diesel. As of now, Biodiesel is the only commercial fuel that meets this requirement .[17]

A. Renewable Fuel Standard
The total amount of biofuels used in the U.S. is required to be at least an amount stated in the legislation. The total target volume increases to 36 billion US gallons (140,000,000 m3) by 2022, from 4.7 billion US gallons (18,000,000 m3) mandated in 2007. The Energy Independence and Security Act further specifies that 21 billion US gallons (79,000,000 m3) of the 2022 total must be derived from non-cornstarch products (e.g. sugar, biodiesel, or cellulose).
B. Biofuels research and development
States with low cellulosic biomass ethanol production may be rewarded grants for research, development, and application of biofuel technologies.[15]
Requires the Secretary of Energy to initiate studies on the use of algae as a feedstock for biofuel production, studies on the durability and performance of engines with the use of biodiesel, and studies to optimize the use of E-85 fuel in flexible fueled vehicles.[14]

All to line the pockets of GW Bush's Big Oil/Big Ag buddies. GW Bush sold the American people a bill of goods. GW Bush sold the Ethanol Mandate for . . . now get this . . . Energy Independence. What a lie. GW sold this ethanol scam to the people. And we are still living with it. And still ignoring the Monster in the Closet . . . PEAK OIL

For those too thick to get it . . . corn ethanol requires more energy, more oil, more fertilizer than is actually returned in the ethanol fuel. Ethanol has a negative EROEI.

"UN Begs US to Stop Corn-Based Ethanol Production During Drought"
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 18 May 2018, 16:52:12

pstarr wrote:All to line the pockets of GW Bush's Big Oil/Big Ag buddies. GW Bush sold the American people a bill of goods. GW Bush sold the Ethanol Mandate for . . . now get this . . . Energy Independence. What a lie. GW sold this ethanol scam to the people. And we are still living with it. And still ignoring the Monster in the Closet . . . PEAK OIL

For those too thick to get it . . . corn ethanol requires more energy, more oil, more fertilizer than is actually returned in the ethanol fuel. Ethanol has a negative EROEI.

Way to falsely pretend this is only a GOP issue.

1). The much beloved on the left HRC during her 2016 campaign:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... /88268530/

WASHINGTON — Hillary Clinton’s campaign fought back Thursday against a report the Democratic presidential nominee might make significant changes to the mandate requiring ethanol be blended into the fuel supply.

Clinton’s campaign confirmed Thursday that an aide with her office met with a California official recently to discuss the federal ethanol mandate known as the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) and the state’s low-carbon fuel standard, among other topics. Reuters reported the meeting was a sign that Clinton, if elected, would look to adjust the RFS.

But Tyrone Gayle, a Clinton spokesperson, said Clinton does not support replacing the existing RFS with one that requires lower-carbon fuels.


2). And, let's add the supposedly oh so green, Bernie Sanders:

"Iowa is one of the leaders in the country in wind and biofuels. So, I support the Renewable Fuel Standard, I think we got to put more emphasis on cellulosic ethanol, which is a more efficient form of biofuel than we currently have."


https://www.mnbiofuels.org/media-mba/bl ... -democrats

I'm forever amused with how the Dems love to claim the GOP is a pack of liars, while their politicians vote the SAME WAY FOR THE SAME STUFF, as long as it buys votes.

But nice try, and thanks for playing the political blame game. Complete fail on that one.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 18 May 2018, 17:14:39

Once again. . . weighting in with nonsense. Your dates are 11 years past due. Read the history of the ethanol mandate before you make another fool out of yourself. How many fools can one soul inhabit?

Does this get tiring?
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby careinke » Sat 19 May 2018, 02:49:09

Keeping with the thread topic. Regular is now $3.45 here in Washington.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 19 May 2018, 06:53:59

careinke wrote:Keeping with the thread topic. Regular is now $3.45 here in Washington.

I paid $3.04 on the highway in New Hampshire Thursday. With WTI over $70 the price will keep going up.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 19 May 2018, 11:52:04

vtsnowedin wrote:
careinke wrote:Keeping with the thread topic. Regular is now $3.45 here in Washington.

I paid $3.04 on the highway in New Hampshire Thursday. With WTI over $70 the price will keep going up.

Just hit $3.00 in, south, and east of Lexington, KY yesterday (I happened to be on the road). KY tends to have pretty moderate gas prices over time, so I'd say that's a good sign that $3 gas is a reality for the summer in much of the US, unless oil prices start to fall meaningfully.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 19 May 2018, 16:00:22

Image
35% in less than a year. Up up and away

No problem. The FED will fix everything and beside people don't need gas for the their gigantic SUV's. Have you not heard? Ford will only sell F350's from now on! Let's flip cars! Let's flip houses. It's all FUN to be an Amurican-not :-D
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 19 May 2018, 17:55:53

The slope of that line from 3/18 on is where the worry lies. Project a best fit line on it out a full year and we could be at $6.00 gas by next May.
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