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THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby dissident » Sun 20 Aug 2017, 08:47:52

radon1 wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:The Russians didn't just invent sh*t.


They didn't say they discovered anything. They said they built a technology that they tested and it produced certain results. It is probably based on some soviet time research anyway.


The world is supposed to know, thanks to American propaganda, that only Americans can invent and develop technology of any type. The rest of humanity is living in mud huts while the residents of Exceptionalistan have a monopoly on human intelligence. Obama claimed "Russia doesn't make anything".

Arrogant American prats take the cake. Being in North America I know that most indigenous students do not take math, science and engineering courses through the university level. They are all into "business", etc. America staffs its research centers with Chinese and other foreigners. This includes MIT, etc.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 20 Aug 2017, 23:47:35

radon - "If they did and the results were so promising, then why wasn't this technology promoted previously by whoever developed it in the first place?" Who said those results were promising? Their lab tests were failures. Not only was the method never tried in a actual field test they couldn't even get the equipment to function without destroying it. So they dropped the concept. In fact it was so far from being proven to be commercially viable no one in the US pursued it any further.

And it you read the detailed Russian press releases they have NOT PROVEN the technique is commercially viable in an actual reservoir. From Russian lips:

"The Oil Technology Center is conducting experimental-industrial trials in the oil fields that belong to Lukoil and Rosneft."

And if you understood the basic concept behind frac'ng you would not be very hopeful. Producing fractures in a reservoir does little to nothing to increase productivity. Because of "sealing pressure" the fractures close and heal themselves. Methods for inducing such fractures are over a 100 years old. What is required are proppants pumped into such newly created fractures. Where the term "proppant" comes from: those sands grains "prop" open the fractures. Without the proppants the rock pressure forces the fractures closed. In fact, in very high pressure reservoirs they use material like sintered bauxite as a proppant: the "sealing pressure" is so high it crushes the sand grains and the fractures seal.

So we might as well table this discussion until the Russians provide something more then THEORIES. Like actual DOCUMENTED proof the technique not only works but is also a economically viable option. Will probably take a few years one way or the other.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby peripato » Fri 22 Sep 2017, 20:16:11

Fracking “technological breakthrough” is theft

In effect, the fracking companies have been drilling into oil deposits already owned by conventional oil companies… and damaging the existing wells in the process. This is likely to result in lengthy court disputes that will add to the financial woes of the fracking companies.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 22 Sep 2017, 20:19:51

peripato wrote:Fracking “technological breakthrough” is theft

In effect, the fracking companies have been drilling into oil deposits already owned by conventional oil companies… and damaging the existing wells in the process. This is likely to result in lengthy court disputes that will add to the financial woes of the fracking companies.

Good find.

"“At least 450 older vertical wells in Kingfisher County alone have been damaged economically because of bigger horizontal wells in the area, according to an interim report by vertical producers.

“The Oklahoma Energy Producers Alliance released the interim study last week, saying it indicates that the older wells have experienced widespread well bashing and that damage has cost producers and royalty owners throughout the state.”"
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby dissident » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 11:04:10

So the hysteria about fracking is a form of magical thinking. The same glass of water can be emptied forever.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 11:06:06

dissident wrote:So the hysteria about fracking is a form of magical thinking. The same glass of water can be emptied forever.

In this case it's slightly different. You smash the glass and sort through the shards for the precious few water droplets.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 11:44:16

This has nothing to do with shale and marginally to do with fracking. What these group of independents in Oklahoma are complaining about is that a new regulation would allow long horizontal wells (not necessarily fracked) in multiple horizons that are considered conventional. Because the laws regarding competitive drainage are almost non-existent in Oklahoma this creates a major problem. As well because the independent producers almost certainly haven't provided a downhole survey to the State regulator it would be impossible for someone drilling a horizontal well to be sure of avoiding intersecting that borehole. When oil companies drill wells in active areas one of the first things they do is a wellbore avoidance study where downhole surveys from all wells are plotted along with the proposed trajectory of the planned well. The trajectory is adjusted accordingly.

In Canada, there are very strict regulations around competitive drainage and the regulators rule quite quickly when complaints are registered. The US industry had a long history of competitive drainage going unregulated with rigs closely stacked, all interfering production-wise with one another.

Fracked wells in tight sands and shales seldom interfere with one another because the average radius of frack extent is about 150 m maximum. So if well bores are situated more than 300 m apart there is little chance of interference taking place.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby peripato » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 18:55:55

rockdoc123 wrote:This has nothing to do with shale and marginally to do with fracking. What these group of independents in Oklahoma are complaining about is that a new regulation would allow long horizontal wells (not necessarily fracked) in multiple horizons that are considered conventional. Because the laws regarding competitive drainage are almost non-existent in Oklahoma this creates a major problem. As well because the independent producers almost certainly haven't provided a downhole survey to the State regulator it would be impossible for someone drilling a horizontal well to be sure of avoiding intersecting that borehole. When oil companies drill wells in active areas one of the first things they do is a wellbore avoidance study where downhole surveys from all wells are plotted along with the proposed trajectory of the planned well. The trajectory is adjusted accordingly.

In Canada, there are very strict regulations around competitive drainage and the regulators rule quite quickly when complaints are registered. The US industry had a long history of competitive drainage going unregulated with rigs closely stacked, all interfering production-wise with one another.

Fracked wells in tight sands and shales seldom interfere with one another because the average radius of frack extent is about 150 m maximum. So if well bores are situated more than 300 m apart there is little chance of interference taking place.

You're in denial. The source in the article, The Oklahoma Corporation Commission, mentions fracking as the culprit several times.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 19:53:36

the actual source of the study is the Oklahoma Energy Producers Alliance which is a group of independent producers of vertical wells in conventional reservoirs. The article linked to mentions fracking companies but it isn't the fracks that the OEPA are concerned about. It is the fact the long reach wells are intersecting their well bores or close enough that they are competitively draining from the conventional reservoir.

It isn't about fracking at all. Whether the well is fracked or not fracked doesn't matter if it intersects a well bore previously drilled and currently producing.

Here is the OEPA website which describes what they are about.
https://okenergyproducers.org/about/
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 21:08:43

rockdoc wrote:" It is the fact the long reach wells are intersecting their well bores or close enough that they are competitively draining from the conventional reservoir.

It isn't about fracking at all. Whether the well is fracked or not fracked doesn't matter if it intersects a well bore previously drilled and currently producing. "

Really, doc? No. Not after years of your lecturing and fine instruction lol We know better than to buy your BS.

There is no point to long laterals in that regions except to drain tight shale. And I would willing to bet there's some propulsive proppants involved. Really, doc?
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby peripato » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 21:45:04

rockdoc123 wrote:the actual source of the study is the Oklahoma Energy Producers Alliance which is a group of independent producers of vertical wells in conventional reservoirs. The article linked to mentions fracking companies but it isn't the fracks that the OEPA are concerned about. It is the fact the long reach wells are intersecting their well bores or close enough that they are competitively draining from the conventional reservoir.

It isn't about fracking at all. Whether the well is fracked or not fracked doesn't matter if it intersects a well bore previously drilled and currently producing.

Here is the OEPA website which describes what they are about.
https://okenergyproducers.org/about/

the actual source of the study is the Oklahoma Energy Producers Alliance

Whatever.

It still says fracking is the bad guy here. Why do you persist in saying otherwise? We all know that the industry is built on cheap money and b.s. Just like the rest of the U.S. economy.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 00:14:40

pstarr wrote:
rockdoc wrote:" It is the fact the long reach wells are intersecting their well bores or close enough that they are competitively draining from the conventional reservoir.

It isn't about fracking at all. Whether the well is fracked or not fracked doesn't matter if it intersects a well bore previously drilled and currently producing. "

Really, doc? No. Not after years of your lecturing and fine instruction lol We know better than to buy your BS.


Says an ardent member of the the chowderhead brigade. You really need to learn something about well interference pstarr...but then...if you did....you would disprove the operating theory that you don't listen, refuse to read explanations that make perfect sense, and can't think your way out of a wet paper bag.

pstarr wrote:There is no point to long laterals in that regions except to drain tight shale. And I would willing to bet there's some propulsive proppants involved. Really, doc?


Except for when they aren't draining shale..but then...for you to know that means you would have needed to listen. And that goes against your religious beliefs of just making it up as you go along.

I've drilled long laterals into shallow sand reservoirs pstarr...there...are you happy now that you have learned something and don't need to be ignorant about where long laterals are drilled?
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 00:41:03

peripato - It is possible for the pressure generated by a frac job to affect a nearby vertical well. But it would have to be very close. But on the order of tens of feet. Which is not what's happening in OK. Read the report again closely: no one is claiming those 450 wells were PHYSICALLY damaged: "...damaged economically".

IOW the horizontal wells were not drilled on the same leases owned by the vertical well operators: that's illegal in every state. But a company has the right to produce any well drilled on a lease the own. I drill Texas and Louisiana...not OK. So I had to just skim their regs. Like both Texas and Louisiana in OK you can only drill and produce on a STATE APPROVED unit. Besides that unit having to be 100% on a lease the company owns it has to be a certain distance from a lease owned by another company. There no way to legally challenge those STATE REGULATIONS. To get a drilling permit you give up that right.

Now this is where I'm not 100% certain about OK but I think it's the same as Texas: the "right of capture" applies. As long as my Texas unit has been approved by the state and my well (vert or hz) is drilled the STATE mandated distance I can economically damage you and you can't do a f*cking thing about it. LOL.

But seriously, you can't. That case law is written in Texas. If Jesus Christ showed in court and testified that my LEGALLY drilled frac'd horizontal well was sucking oil from your lease I still wouldn't have to pay you $1. OTOH you do have the right to drill a LEGALLY located frac'd horizontal well on your side of the lease line opposite my well. The idea is that you can't stop me from producing my lease by not developing the reservoir on your side of the lease line.

And how about Louisiana? A very different set of rules. You might drill a LEGALLY located well on your side of that lease line that makes 1,000 bopd. But if I can confine the UNITIZATION COMMISSION that my geologist's may is right you might have to give me 700 of those 1,000 bopd. About 40 years ago this law led to huge technical trials before the Commission sometimes with $100 of millions at stake. And just like big criminal trials bring out top gun lawyers this unitization hearings would bring out highly paid consultants that did nothing else but represent companies. And for good reason: I once saw a company's geologist ripped so badly on the stand (yes you sit in the stand in front of the Commission and court room and GEF relentlessly grilled about your geologic interpretation) that he actually left the court room in tears. The lesson: you use the hired guns to argue your case and not one of you staff geologist. The owner of my company, who was a rather cutthroat hardass himself, afterwards admitted he felt a bit ashamed over how much of the other company's production the Commission assigned us: about 2X what I mapped. Mapping the Commission never got to see.

But nearly so much drama these days. Now one gets a state approved drilling unit that can include offset lease owners...whether they like it or not. Called "forced pooling". And if they don't choose to share in the drill cost they can suffer a huge financial penalty if the well is good.

One thing I hope you and others understand: despite your eyes possibly glazing over half wag they I left out a huge amount of detail on this subject matter. So when you read short little blerbs like the one that started this chat don't for minute think you really understand what the f*ck is going on. Some tease about my long posts. But the reality is that the subject matters we discuss are z tad more complex then a few lines can do justice to. Doc and I can just tell some of you that you're just acting like ignorant and foolish children. But what would be the point of wasting our time to do that.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby peripato » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 01:20:16

ROCKMAN wrote:...

One thing I hope you and others understand: despite your eyes possibly glazing over half wag they I left out a huge amount of detail on this subject matter. So when you read short little blerbs like the one that started this chat don't for minute think you really understand what the f*ck is going on. Some tease about my long posts. But the reality is that the subject matters we discuss are z tad more complex then a few lines can do justice to. Doc and I can just tell some of you that you're just acting like ignorant and foolish children. But what would be the point of wasting our time to do that.

Looks like I've ruffled a few feathers. Economically, physically, what's the difference? Frackers have been caught stealing other people's oil.

“At least 450 older vertical wells in Kingfisher County alone have been damaged economically because of bigger horizontal wells in the area, according to an interim report by vertical producers.

“The Oklahoma Energy Producers Alliance released the interim study last week, saying it indicates that the older wells have experienced widespread well bashing and that damage has cost producers and royalty owners throughout the state.”
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 09:18:12

peripato wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:...

One thing I hope you and others understand: despite your eyes possibly glazing over half wag they I left out a huge amount of detail on this subject matter. So when you read short little blerbs like the one that started this chat don't for minute think you really understand what the f*ck is going on. Some tease about my long posts. But the reality is that the subject matters we discuss are z tad more complex then a few lines can do justice to. Doc and I can just tell some of you that you're just acting like ignorant and foolish children. But what would be the point of wasting our time to do that.

Looks like I've ruffled a few feathers. Economically, physically, what's the difference? Frackers have been caught stealing other people's oil.


As Rockman has pointed out, you don't even understand what that is, in the oil and gas industry. Makes you a perfect peak oiler of course, it isn't as though you WANT to learn anything either.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 11:13:42

p - "Frackers have been caught stealing other people's oil." I'm sorry for being so harsh but your statement is a lie or made out of ignorance. Either way even though my long post was wasted on you others hopefully gained some useful insight. Unfortunately you're obviously are a lost cause. Sorry but have to cut you loose.

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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 13:59:38

ROCKMAN wrote:p - "Frackers have been caught stealing other people's oil." I'm sorry for being so harsh but your statement is a lie or made out of ignorance. Either way even though my long post was wasted on you others hopefully gained some useful insight. Unfortunately you're obviously are a lost cause. Sorry but have to cut you loose.

Via con dios, muchacho.


Don't feel bad Rock. This is such a common thing that they invented a saying for it, long ago.

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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 16:17:06

Adam - I don't think he's stupid. Just a pre-set bias that can make it nearly impossible to absorb facts presented to him. Or worse: unwilling to take the time to up anotherdig the facts from the web. But with no background in the subject that would take 100's of hours to get even close to coming up the speed.

Which is why I tend to write such long posts. But still no way to give an in depth education. But if folks allow me a tad of credibility they may gain some understanding. And if they think my every word is a lie then so be it: they are too far gone anyway to help. For them their lives will be filled with bumper sticker snippets and news stories which they are unable to judge the validity of. Info they can only see with their terminally prejudiced blinded vision.

Unlike you, buddy, I'm content to leave them alone to stew in their own juices after I've made an effort or two to reach them. As I've said before: one should not try to teach pigs to roller skate: it only frustrates you and pisses them off. LOL
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby peripato » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 17:45:30

ROCKMAN wrote:p - "Frackers have been caught stealing other people's oil." I'm sorry for being so harsh but your statement is a lie or made out of ignorance. Either way even though my long post was wasted on you others hopefully gained some useful insight. Unfortunately you're obviously are a lost cause. Sorry but have to cut you loose.

Via con dios, muchacho.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, slick.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby peripato » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 17:51:14

AdamB wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:p - "Frackers have been caught stealing other people's oil." I'm sorry for being so harsh but your statement is a lie or made out of ignorance. Either way even though my long post was wasted on you others hopefully gained some useful insight. Unfortunately you're obviously are a lost cause. Sorry but have to cut you loose.

Via con dios, muchacho.


Don't feel bad Rock. This is such a common thing that they invented a saying for it, long ago.

Image

The whole fracking thing is built on lies, so why is the idea of frackers stealing other people's oil (well-bashing), so difficult to believe?

You are so sad. Even when the truth hits you right between the eyes like a piece of 4 x 2 you still can't accept it.
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