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THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 10 May 2017, 09:54:27

Interesting...thanks Tanada.
I have to wonder how this can be economic. I remember struggling with the limited access issues into a large part of onshore Alaska years ago. There was basically 6 months of the year when you could work, ice roads were necessary and operations were very expensive. I realize this doesn't speak to the situation in all of onshore Alaska. But if conventional operations are inhibited by high costs and operational challenges you can imagine what unconventional operations would be faced with. In the winters this far north rigs are known to have to shut down because temperatures can temporarily drop below that safe to operate rotating equipment. Also it is tough enough in the winter to keep just the rig warm enough but when you are in the middle of a large frac operation you can have quite a large number of water vehicles, frac trucks etc on site, all of which would have to run continuously to avoid freezeup and water would have to be kept warm. All of this is of course doable but I suspect the costs will be prohibitive. But we said that years ago about other operations and innovation eventually proved us wrong. Should be interesting to keep an eye on progress.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 10 May 2017, 12:35:19

I guess as global warming continues it will only soften up the permafrost and make it easier to frack.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 10 May 2017, 14:50:32

asg70 wrote:I guess as global warming continues it will only soften up the permafrost and make it easier to frack.

That would make it more difficult.
/sarc
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 10 May 2017, 15:29:19

pstarr wrote:That would make it more difficult.


In your book fracking is always impossible, so why bother throwing in your 2c?
“If and when the oil price skewers for 6 months or more substantially above the MAP, then I will concede the Etp is inherently flawed"
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 10 May 2017, 15:32:47

asg70 wrote:
pstarr wrote:That would make it more difficult.


In your book fracking is always impossible, so why bother throwing in your 2c?

My 2c is worth a dollar of your arrogance and anger.

Permafrost is frozen. but permamud is impassable. Drilling and completion must occurs in the frozen months. Because drill rigs and fract trucks can't run on mud. Also the upper few feet of a well bore (frozen or otherwise) count for little in a 20,000 drill string that passes through strata of hard rock.

When are you going to ease up?
/sarc
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby Squilliam » Wed 10 May 2017, 22:05:12

I guess from the perspective of Alaska for oil they have two major choices:

1. Shut down existing oil production and lose revenues from that due to the pipeline no longer being viable. Then potentially lose all future revenue because of the cost to restart said pipeline due to the area it is in.

2. Encourage as best they can an increase in production to keep that pipeline viable and lower the overall cost per barrel shipped.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 10 May 2017, 23:11:27

"I guess as global warming continues it will only soften up the permafrost and make it easier to frack."

Actually ops are easier when the drill site ground is frozen. When the permafrost thaws it can be a serious mud problem in some areas. Granted getting around can be a bitch but that's a different problem. In N Dakota during the spring thaw many drill sites have to be rocked or covered with 10' wooden pallets and usually double that under the drill rig to keep it stable.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 11 May 2017, 01:02:27

ROCKMAN wrote:"I guess as global warming continues it will only soften up the permafrost and make it easier to frack."

Actually ops are easier when the drill site ground is frozen. When the permafrost thaws it can be a serious mud problem in some areas. Granted getting around can be a bitch but that's a different problem. In N Dakota during the spring thaw many drill sites have to be rocked or covered with 10' wooden pallets and usually double that under the drill rig to keep it stable.

Didn't I say the same thing earlier? You teach your students well, sensei
/sarc
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 11 May 2017, 08:52:23

Actually ops are easier when the drill site ground is frozen. When the permafrost thaws it can be a serious mud problem in some areas. Granted getting around can be a bitch but that's a different problem. In N Dakota during the spring thaw many drill sites have to be rocked or covered with 10' wooden pallets and usually double that under the drill rig to keep it stable.


the ability to get into many areas in Alaska after spring thaw is not just a logistical issue it is also a regulatory one..the State (and the Fed on Federal lands) limits access into these areas for oil and gas activity until freeze up. It isn't the same everywhere of course but certainly for a large part of the North slope.

the limited access can be a huge issue. I know of a company that drilled 3 wells on the North slope but ran out of time to evaluate them and had to pull the rigs out prior to spring breakup. That required rebuilding a very long ice road and remobilizing service rigs to the site to further test the wells and then abandon them. This almost doubled the cost of the original AFE for the wells. Not a nice surprise if you aren't a company aware of the operating issues in some parts of Alaska.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 11 May 2017, 09:22:19

an interesting tidbit I found by doing a bit of background research on Project Icewine and 88 Energy is that the area in question spans a large east - west lateral distance with the Dalton haul road and the Trans Alaskan pipeline running north-south through the middle of the acreage. That allowed 88 energy to breeze through all of the various approvals for drilling and also facilitated getting the wells done. Vertical wells apparently can be drilled in one month from spud to TD. So as long as 88 Energy stays very close to the haul road (apparently their first well pad is right beside it) they are in good shape to continue drilling. What remains to be seen is whether the Dalton haul road is capable of handling the number of heavyweight frac trucks which will be required for an unconventional operation (havng driven that road many years ago I would suggest it isn't), whether the reserves accessible from pads close to the road are large enough to be economic and whether the Alaskan regulatory bodies will approve a site large enough to accomodate large fracs.
Here is a map cutout from the DNR website that shows the location of the icewine project (Accumulate Energy is the operating arm for 88 Energy and partner). Image

note all the thermokarst ponds in the area....speaks to how difficult access will be away from any main road
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 11 May 2017, 10:07:06

Just some more details on Doc's comment about access. Geologists draw maps and put a circle where they want to drill. And then operations adds an overlay map of the surface conditions and shows the geologist where he won't get to drill. Especially true in the seaplanes of S Louisiana: you only drill where you can move a barge rig in. The Rockman has generated 3 different good looking prospects that didn't get drilled because we could not float a rig close enough.

And just like up north timing can be critical. In the Gulf Coast you avoid drilling in shallow water during hurricane season if it's possible. Floating rigs can usually handle such bad weather. But a rig sitting on the on the bottom in 30' of water can be completely destroyed by the same storm.

The good news about that N Slope well it might have had a viable recon target size that covered dozens of miles...maybe even 50+ miles. Then, as Doc says, you pick you location based more on the logistics then on the geology. But once you prove the economics of the project you might be able to justify those more expensive locations.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 09:40:26

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Ru ... cking.html

Russia Claims To Have Invented Alternative To Fracking

Russian scientists and local oil field services companies claim to have created a technology for thermochemical gas fracturing that could be an alternative to hydraulic fracturing and could increase oil production by between 1.7 and 6 times, Russia’s news agency RIA Novosti reports, citing the University of Tyumen’s press service.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 10:46:17

"The other upside in the technology, the Russians claim, is that the main component in the chemical reactions is ammonium nitrate, which is often used as fertilizer."

Also occasionally used to blow up buildings. Is that property somehow useful in a wet rock strata?
/sarc
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 15:41:05

The Russians didn't just invent sh*t. A quick search found a govt sponsored report on TDGF (Thermodynamically Drive. Gas-dynamic Fracturing) from 2005. The final technical report was publishedf 7 years go. Didn't bother wasting time looking any further back in time.

And basically it's not so much fracturing as it is a thermal EOR method to increase oil flow by heating up the rock.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 15:54:58

ROCKMAN wrote:The Russians didn't just invent sh*t. A quick search found a govt sponsored report on TDGF (Thermodynamically Drive. Gas-dynamic Fracturing) from 2005. The final technical report was publishedf 7 years go. Didn't bother wasting time looking any further back in time.

And basically it's not so much fracturing as it is a thermal EOR method to increase oil flow by heating up the rock.

I was also thinking that, like SAGD or THAI?
/sarc
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 20:28:13

I was also thinking that, like SAGD or THAI?


Not the same. SAGD involves injecting steam in injector wells and allowing gravity to drain the superheated oil into producing wells. THAI is more like the fire floods we experimented with back in the seventies. Steam is injected into a horizontal well and once the reservoir temperature reaches a certain level oxygen is injected which results in combustion. The problem with both technologies has been predictability of flow and in the case of THAI (much like the fire floods run in the seventies) reservoir damage. The TDGF idea is completely different. It is proposed to be used in semi-depleted conventional reservoirs that might be damaged and hence recovery is less than expected. Rather than doing a conventional water/surfactant frack in a given well what they propose is doing the pressure frack with chemicals that essentially create a heated frack. This not only is supposed to improve permeability but also oil mobility. Whether or not it can change wettability in the reservoir is unknown and that is a big question. There is no combustion that happens (as far as I can tell from the paper I read) so a great portion of the fluids should be recovered and recycled. All that being said the effect of this method will only reach not much more than 100 metres from a well bore under existing mega-frack technology. So the overall increased recovery may not be that great. That being said experimentation in areas like this are what drives innovation in the industry and eventually improved recovery.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby radon1 » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 10:55:37

ROCKMAN wrote:The Russians didn't just invent sh*t.


They didn't say they discovered anything. They said they built a technology that they tested and it produced certain results. It is probably based on some soviet time research anyway.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 12:52:42

Radon - Perhaps English is your second language. LOL. From your link: "Russian scientists and local oil field services companies claim to have created a technology for thermochemical gas fracturing that could be an alternative to hydraulic fracturing..."

FYI: created = invented. Copying someone else's homework is not doing your home work. LOL.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby radon1 » Sat 19 Aug 2017, 02:59:00

ROCKMAN wrote:Radon - Perhaps English is your second language. LOL. From your link: "Russian scientists and local oil field services companies claim to have created a technology for thermochemical gas fracturing that could be an alternative to hydraulic fracturing..."

FYI: created = invented. Copying someone else's homework is not doing your home work. LOL.


My first language is the language of the original text and I can tell you that in the context, created=/=invented. In the context, created = developed. Whether they copy-pasted anything I have no idea. If they did and the results were so promising, then why wasn't this technology promoted previously by whoever developed it in the first place?
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Re: THE Fracking Thread pt 3

Unread postby dissident » Sun 20 Aug 2017, 08:47:52

radon1 wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:The Russians didn't just invent sh*t.


They didn't say they discovered anything. They said they built a technology that they tested and it produced certain results. It is probably based on some soviet time research anyway.


The world is supposed to know, thanks to American propaganda, that only Americans can invent and develop technology of any type. The rest of humanity is living in mud huts while the residents of Exceptionalistan have a monopoly on human intelligence. Obama claimed "Russia doesn't make anything".

Arrogant American prats take the cake. Being in North America I know that most indigenous students do not take math, science and engineering courses through the university level. They are all into "business", etc. America staffs its research centers with Chinese and other foreigners. This includes MIT, etc.
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