Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 20 May 2018, 09:40:53

The main engine of economic exploitation is the financial system's ever increasing extraction of value through interest payments, according to economist Michael Hudson. Paul Craig Roberts finds his analysis all too accurate, as the over-financialized economies of western countries head down a spiral of poverty, decline, injustice and despair.


Western economies have been financialized in a predatory way that sacrifices the public interest to the financial sector. That is why the economy no longer works for ordinary people. Finance is no longer productive. It has become a parasite on the economy


https://theecologist.org/2016/feb/12/ki ... al-economy
Last edited by Tanada on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 13:55:25, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed typo in thread title
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9293
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 20 May 2018, 10:24:24

That is an absolute crackpot theory. The man is an idiot.

The most fundamental flaw in his theory: Today's economy is stronger and more robust than at any time in the past. The unemployment statistics are astonishing, here in the Silly Valley, various counties are in the 2.0 to 2.2% range, the lowest since WW2.

More people are employed in more jobs than ever before. More goods are being produced, more trade is occurring, housing starts are on the increase, car sales are up, every indicater we have for economic health is increasing.

Yet he wants to sell his book, and idiots want to believe in Doom.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5091
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Sys1 » Sun 20 May 2018, 11:34:49

KaiserJeep : Then what the fuck are you doing on a doomer site, moron?
You should go writing your BS on Fock News, wou will be far better welcomed than here.
User avatar
Sys1
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri 25 Feb 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 20 May 2018, 11:56:24

Sys1 wrote:KaiserJeep : Then what the fuck are you doing on a doomer site, moron?
You should go writing your BS on Fock News, wou will be far better welcomed than here.

Ah, typical fast crash doomer BS.

1). Everyone who doesn't agree with many of them is a "moron", data be damned. Events be damned.

2). Everyone must be here because they are a "doomer". No other reason possible, re their narrow world view.

3). I came here to learn about oil production, and secondarily more about oil economics. Funny how that could be true no matter what my doom POV is.

4). If things aren't going your way re predictions, clearly the most adult way to go about things is to ad hom people. Because we all know, looking at the data, current trends, changes in technology, etc. and re-evaluating things is impossible. /s

5). I'm a moderate, who tends toward an attitude of long term doom, given human nature and BAU growth. Yet somehow, many of the points KJ makes are at least superficially true (at least for the short to intermediate term), even as long term BAU growth and AGW makes things for the planet more precarious. (KJ isn't a fan of AGW, which I don't agree with, but somehow I can manage to screech at him like an eight year old).

...

If you can't stand varying viewpoints and a discussion of real world data, why don't YOU go to an actual doomer site? It's not like there are a lack of those.

Clearly the mods are willing to tolerate opposing viewpoints. Can you? (It doesn't mean you have to agree with them).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 5436
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 20 May 2018, 12:05:23

onlooker wrote:
The main engine of economic exploitation is the financial system's ever increasing extraction of value through interest payments, according to economist Michael Hudson.

Yes, let's pretend like the world hasn't just been through nearly a decade of near zero interest rates for many, and extremely low interest rates for most, for nearly a decade. Let's also pretend that re current trends, it won't likely take several more years for interest rates to generally return to normal. And let's also pretend that there's no chance a global recession won't force interest rates back to near zero or even negative rates in the mean time.

And while we're at it, let's pretend capitalism can work well without debt. Or that societies with little capital currently can manage to magically improve their situation in several decades without debt.

And finally, let's pretend people will lend their private capital and risk losing it, without wanting interest as compensation.

Just on this statement, this sounds far more like a liberal screed than a serious work based on rational economic thought.

Naturally, Onlooker is attracted to this, whether it has merit or not, as it has a whiff of doom.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 5436
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 20 May 2018, 13:50:52

Oh my where to start with you guys. Well actually first, I will start by saying I too am not in favor of ad hom attacks by anybody. Not to mention it is against the rules. Okay, now the following statement has got to be one of the most egegrious I have heard since I have been on this site "Today's economy is stronger and more robust than at any time in the past." But will get to that in a second.

The US is NOT the world and neither are the rich countries. The system of onerous Debt and exploitation is now well documented. How countries are being indebted to intolerable levels and how their people end up suffering for this, as rigid policies are instituted that punish citizens of many countries so the Debt and its interest payments can be paid.

Now for the statement I mentioned above. Well Silly Valley is not the US. Americans are in debt to ridiculous levels and continue to be fed ever more debt. Practically 50 million Americans are on food stamps. https://www.cnbc.com/id/48898378
And please do not say things have improved since 2012, that just would be absurd. As for your oft cited more Americans buying cars and more miles driven. Yes a segment of the American population is able to afford very low to no interest car payments. That hardly says anything worthwhile. Especially considering that at some point , one has to expect interest rates to really rise. The Housing and Unemployment good news Kaiser cites is tremendously misleading. First off housing prices have once again risen, this does NOT help your ordindary American, it helps mostly fat cats. Most Americans are not wheeling and dealing real estate. Last I checked we had a really bad Real Estate bubble go boom. In fact bubbles seem to be the standard economic cycle now. Many lose and few well placed and informed individuals win with these bubbles. As for unemployment, it is now common knowledge that figures are quite deceptive. First off, in the manner they calculate, people who have gone over a certain period of time without finding and/or looking for work are dropped from the statistics. That is pretty warped. And of course some of you here swear by official statistics whereas sites on the Internet dispute the rosy unrealistic official numbers.

Finally, the larger point, is that the Finance sector has become a parasite on the General Economy throughout the world. Investment Banks, Hedge funds, etc. go around seeking to speculate and when they lose, they are bailed out by tax payers. The entire finance and investment system is cashing in via Capital gains by marginalizing ie laying off workers, disbanding Unions, cutting wages etc. It is happening to an extreme in many countries and here in the US, this all has been happening also as part time and low wage service sector jobs are the only option for an increasing amount of Americans. Onerous Debts is debilitating countries on down to people around the planet. What do you think will happen as interest rates begin to steadily go up. If you have the time. Look up compound interest, Fractional Reserve banking and Fiat money, to see what an epic scheme/swindle to rob the world's money the Finance Bank Sector has foisted upon the world.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9293
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby phaster » Sun 20 May 2018, 14:11:14

onlooker wrote:
The main engine of economic exploitation is the financial system's ever increasing extraction of value through interest payments, according to economist Michael Hudson. Paul Craig Roberts finds his analysis all too accurate, as the over-financialized economies of western countries head down a spiral of poverty, decline, injustice and despair.


Western economies have been financialized in a predatory way that sacrifices the public interest to the financial sector. That is why the economy no longer works for ordinary people. Finance is no longer productive. It has become a parasite on the economy


https://theecologist.org/2016/feb/12/ki ... al-economy


IMHO The financial system is NOT destroying the world economy,... I say this because unto itself the financial system is just a tool like a sharp knife that has the potential to cause lots of harm,...

ponder for a moment if you give a sharp knife to a child, the most likely outcome will be the child not knowing the danger will hurt them selves or others around them,... BUT a sharp knife in the hands of a skilled surgen could save the life of a child w/ an infected appendix

bottom line w/ the financial system AND fossil fuels, there is a yin and yang side

consider the fact that global population is now over 7+ billion,... the reason we have this population explosion is because the financial system AND fossil fuels have created an environment where a majority of people now don't have to grow their own food for daily survival!

the dark side of the financial system AND fossil fuels is some people want to keep their position position at the top,... hence they ignore the science which indicates the current system is unsustainable AND play mind games trying to fool the masses w/ PSYOP campaign(s) basically selling doubt!!

Image

***allegedly*** Revelle in 1992 wrote:"Look before you leap - Drastic, precipitous—and, especially, unilateral—steps to delay the putative greenhouse impacts can cost jobs and prosperity and increase the human costs of global poverty, without being effective. Stringent economic controls now would be economically devastating particularly for developing countries..."

Image

http://www.TinyURL.com/RevelleDoubt
Last edited by phaster on Sun 20 May 2018, 14:20:52, edited 1 time in total.
I'm 99.999% sure that unsustainable conspicuous consumption & economic mismanagement will result with a proverbial hell on earth! But the damage can be reversed if we acknowledge the problem, then use the scientific method to fix the problem.

www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay
User avatar
phaster
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun 15 Jul 2007, 02:00:00

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Sys1 » Sun 20 May 2018, 14:13:48

Very simple :
The global economy is collapsing since 2008. Just watch global debt chart and you will get we have a problem.
And now that oil is going up again, central banks are gameover :
- if they put interest rates up, all bubbles inflated since 2008 (google,facebook,real estate,art...) will pop like fireworks.
- if they put interest down... Oil will go up faster.

We have exactly the same situation as 2008, but will zillion debt more (not only on banks but also on countries, the very same countries who endebt themselves to "save" the economy back when subprimes went quite wrong with 147$ a barrel), less oil and more people .

The global collapse of civilisation will look like unclimbing stair :

Great (youporn, facebook)__
...................................|
...................................|___
........................................|
........................................|___Not Great (Mad Max)________
...................................................................................\_________________ Dead Earth (like Mars, or worse, Venus)

===========================================================================================> Time Arrow (from past to future)
User avatar
Sys1
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri 25 Feb 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 20 May 2018, 14:28:51

Sys, really nice post. And Phaster, you also had some keen observations. But your analogy to a knife is not correct at this point. The Finance sector and system at this point is more like a weapon of mass destruction. I mean again even this country. Look at how we have neglected our infrastructure not to mention, have not had a robust attempt to transition from FF. This is all because the gaming of the financial system and the manner it operates has and is allowing a very few to benefit greatly at the expense of the many and the future. Any serious thinker knows that, at this point. But all that is water under the bridge now. I agree with Sys pretty much, we are headed for the Big Collapse and in the meantime we all just are getting ever more smothered economically contrary to what our optimistic friends may say. All I can say at this point sincerely, is I am glad I never had kids.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9293
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 20 May 2018, 14:30:12

Debt is a voluntary thing. You CHOOSE to borrow, nobody forces you to do so. Personally, I was taught to avoid it whenever possible, which meant mortgages only. I borrowed money for two cars, which was a really bad idea, unlike houses, they depreciate. I also drove two cheap cars into the ground, beyond economical repair, not because I enjoyed driving a jalopy without working air conditioning or shiny paint, but because I had other priorities. As a matter of fact, somebody pointed out I had a worse car than anybody working for me one day. I pointed out I was the only one not making a car payment.

You also have choice in where you live and what you work at doing. You can choose a lucrative job that requires education and talent, or both. Which means that you must excell in school and then pay money for more schooling on top of that. The alternative is being a wage slave, working a dead end job where you will be exploited forever.

Too many people want to blame "the system" for the wrong choices they made in their lives, including a lot of PO members. When other people around you get further in life and have more, it typically is not a matter of luck, it is a matter of making better choices.

I understand the temptations of easy credit and how the financial industry victimizes people. But I also believe that people choose to be in debt. You also choose to save for your retirement and whether you move when your employer asks you to do so.

Choices, we all make them. Some would try to sluff off the consequences of poor choices as "bad luck", or "the system". Others are more honest, especially with themselves.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5091
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Sys1 » Sun 20 May 2018, 15:24:25

Debt is a voluntary thing. You CHOOSE to borrow, nobody forces you to do so.


Not really. When you have to pay for a car or a house you have to borrow or you won't have the car and the house.
Worse, when you are poor, you need to borrow to buy things like a washing machine, repairing your car or changing roof after a thunderstorm.
Far more worse, our local "Wallmart" (Casino) here in France proposes since a month a credit card to buy... food.
Yes, food. Borrowing to buy food... In France.
User avatar
Sys1
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri 25 Feb 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 20 May 2018, 16:02:09

You can choose to rent rather than pay a mortgage. The mortgage is voluntary and entirely a matter of choice, as well as being the one example of a debt my parents taught me was justified.

My Father did buy my Mother new cars. He drove her old car rather than buy one for himself, and I did the same. I drove an old Plymouth station wagon to work for 4 years, paying off the new Jeep Cherokee the wife got. The Plymouth was what the Jeep replaced. Get a clue, NOBODY needs a new car for their personal vanity. I rebuilt the engine in the Plymouth and put another 80,000 miles on it after the rebuild. When it died on the highway the final time, I recycled it. By then the kid had graduated and the wife had graduated and I got my first new car since the 1970's, the 2003 Jeep I still own. I put it on my home equity line and paid it off in less than a year.

You have choices, take the responsibility of making the right ones. It's a matter of acting like a grown-up.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5091
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 May 2018, 16:09:56

Sys1 wrote:
Debt is a voluntary thing. You CHOOSE to borrow, nobody forces you to do so.


Not really. When you have to pay for a car or a house you have to borrow or you won't have the car and the house.
Worse, when you are poor, you need to borrow to buy things like a washing machine, repairing your car or changing roof after a thunderstorm.
Far more worse, our local "Wallmart" (Casino) here in France proposes since a month a credit card to buy... food.
Yes, food. Borrowing to buy food... In France.

In America as well.
The payday-lending industry is vast. There are now more payday loan stores in the United States than there are McDonald’s restaurants. The operators of those stores make around $46 billion a year in loans, collecting $7 billion in fees. Some 12 million people, many of whom lack other access to credit, take out the short-term loans each year, researchers estimate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/busi ... -cfpb.html
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27176
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 20 May 2018, 16:30:09

And this is how insidious the conditions of the payday loans are:
What does it mean to renew or roll over a payday loan?
Answer: Generally, renewing or rolling over a payday loan means you pay a fee to delay paying back the loan. This fee does not reduce the amount you owe. You will still owe the principal and fees for the rollover.
Some payday lenders give borrowers the option to renew or rollover their loans if they cannot afford to pay off the loan when it’s due. However, many states limit or ban these renewals or rollovers.

If your loan is renewed or rolled over instead of being repaid in full on its due date, you are paying a fee to extend the loan due date. Renewing by paying just the fees does not reduce the principal amount you owe.

For example, on a typical payday loan, if you borrowed $300, you may owe $345 in 14 days-- $300 plus the $45 fee. If you roll over the loan, you pay only the $45 fee, and you have to repay the $300 plus another $45 fee 14 days later. That means the cost of the original $300 loan, due to the rollover, has gone from $45 to $90. If you roll over the loan multiple times, it’s possible to pay several hundred dollars in fees and still owe the amount you borrowed.

Currently, a cash-strapped customer might borrow $400 from a payday lender. The loan would be due two weeks later — plus $60 in interest and fees. That is the equivalent of an annual interest rate of more than 300 percent, far higher than what banks and credit cards charge for loans.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9293
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Cog » Sun 20 May 2018, 17:30:59

Sys1 wrote:KaiserJeep : Then what the fuck are you doing on a doomer site, moron?
You should go writing your BS on Fock News, wou will be far better welcomed than here.


This is not a "doomer site". This is a site to discuss the implications of oil depletion. The fact that there are doomers like you here, simply means the board staff are tolerant of your nonsense.
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10414
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 20 May 2018, 18:25:50

Sys1 wrote:
Debt is a voluntary thing. You CHOOSE to borrow, nobody forces you to do so.


Not really. When you have to pay for a car or a house you have to borrow or you won't have the car and the house.
Worse, when you are poor, you need to borrow to buy things like a washing machine, repairing your car or changing roof after a thunderstorm.

Or, far more "poor" people COULD choose to make wiser spending decisions. Here is where I think our education system could do more. Basic information on spending and shopping and choices (I think they used to call this home-economics when I was a kid. I would have FAR rather had that than be forced to take shop because I was a boy) would be helpful, when parents aren't doing the job.

This is more of a liberal talking point than fact. The US "war against poverty" loved by the left was started formally over 50 years ago. How much poverty reduction has all those $trillions really bought us? Yep, it's been about as effective as the "war on drugs", so loved by conservatives.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 5436
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 May 2018, 18:58:32

Sys1 wrote:KaiserJeep : Then what the fuck are you doing on a doomer site, moron?
You should go writing your BS on Fock News, wou will be far better welcomed than here.

He's just like the entire pack of morons who populated this site before the Greatest Depression of All Time

"It can't happen here" "It can't happen here" "It can't happen again" (hint, that was only step one in a long stairway down)

Don't look down KJ. It's an abyss down there.
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27176
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 20 May 2018, 19:02:32

pstarr wrote:
Sys1 wrote:KaiserJeep : Then what the fuck are you doing on a doomer site, moron?
You should go writing your BS on Fock News, wou will be far better welcomed than here.

He's just like the entire pack of morons who populated this site before the Greatest Depression of All Time

"It can't happen here" "It can't happen here" "It can't happen again" (hint, that was only step one in a long stairway down)

Don't look down KJ. It's an abyss down there.

Yep, friends. It is not about doom or not doom. It is about reality and some here do not wish to see it :razz:
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9293
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 20 May 2018, 19:12:35

pstarr wrote:
Sys1 wrote:KaiserJeep : Then what the fuck are you doing on a doomer site, moron?
You should go writing your BS on Fock News, wou will be far better welcomed than here.

He's just like the entire pack of morons who populated this site before the Greatest Depression of All Time

Except it's not even clear that the 2008-2009 great recession was even a depression, much less "the greatest depression".

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/27/news/ec ... index.html

His statement is raising eyebrows. While the "Great Recession" was scary, there's a reason it wasn't dubbed a depression: Bernanke's aggressive policy response.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... epression/

Obama said the economy was worse "in some ways" -- a standard that strikes us as especially vague, and thus difficult to fact-check.

The White House spurned three attempts by PolitiFact to supply data backing up Obama’s claim.



https://voxeu.org/article/how-similar-c ... depression

No depression thus far

Despite the stunning contraction of industrial production and trade across the globe in the second half of 2008, the global economy is still a far cry away from the calamities of the Great Depression. The traumatic financial sector adjustment seen in the early 1930s has been avoided. Declines in activity and inflation in the US – the core economy – have so far been less virulent than they were during 1929–31. Perhaps most importantly, the destructive forces of debt deflation have not set in. This suggests that benefits of the unprecedented policy support, an international monetary system that provides for reflationary adjustment and more favourable initial macroeconomic conditions have outweighed the effects of greater vulnerabilities and cross-border linkages.

Note that this piece was written in late April of 2009 -- about the time the great RECESSION was ENDING.

...

Do you EVER make an economic claim that is actually credible? Or that doesn't rely on some fringe viewpoint supported by the likes of zerohedge, but lacking meaningful factual basis?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 5436
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: The financial system is destrohing the world economy

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 20 May 2018, 20:02:37

I know outcaste. That "not-so-bad" worst recession of all time wasn't even bad for you, because you are brilliant. And you have good constitution and morals.

And all that pain from the ("not-so-bad" worst recession of all time) wasn't really all that bad because it was only the worst "recession" (cough cough cough) of all time. And not really the never-ending worst depression of all time.

And most certainly the ("not-so-bad" worst recession of all time) had nothing to do with $100/barrel crude or $5.00 gasoline.
/sarc

Keep dreamin' Keep token'
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27176
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Next

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests