Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 09:05:33

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 9ce4cb0320

"The alarming statistics that show the U.S. economy isn’t as good as it seems – “We have a ‘Two Realities’ economy in America”
Applicable worldwide. The increasing have nots and wealthier haves
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 09:13:32

Refers to this point I just made

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... poorest-50
The world’s eight richest billionaires control the same wealth between them as the poorest half of the globe’s population, according to a charity warning of an ever-increasing and dangerous concentration of wealth.

In a report published to coincide with the start of the week-long World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Oxfam said it was “beyond grotesque” that a handful of rich men headed by the Microsoft founder Bill Gates are worth $426bn (£350bn), equivalent to the wealth of 3.6 billion people.

The development charity called for a new economic model to reverse an inequality trend that it said helped to explain Brexit and Donald Trump’s victory in the US presidential election.


Oxfam blamed rising inequality on aggressive wage restraint, tax dodging and the squeezing of producers by companies, adding that businesses were too focused on delivering ever-higher returns to wealthy owners and top executives.

The World Economic Forum (WEF) said last week that rising inequality and social polarisation posed two of the biggest risks to the global economy in 2017 and could result in the rolling back of globalisation.

"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby GHung » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:31:45

onlooker wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/05/25/the-alarming-statistics-that-show-the-u-s-economy-isnt-as-good-as-it-seems/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3d9ce4cb0320

"The alarming statistics that show the U.S. economy isn’t as good as it seems – “We have a ‘Two Realities’ economy in America”
Applicable worldwide. The increasing have nots and wealthier haves


Yep. It's easy for the Marmicos and Cogs to trot out broad-brush charts and statistics that show how well everyone must be doing. Don't look to deep into what is really going on.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 16:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:37:08

GHung wrote:
onlooker wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/05/25/the-alarming-statistics-that-show-the-u-s-economy-isnt-as-good-as-it-seems/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3d9ce4cb0320

"The alarming statistics that show the U.S. economy isn’t as good as it seems – “We have a ‘Two Realities’ economy in America”
Applicable worldwide. The increasing have nots and wealthier haves


Yep. It's easy for the Marmicos and Cogs to trot out broad-brush charts and statistics that show how well everyone must be doing. Don't look to deep into what is really going on.

Yep G. Yep that may fool the majority of the sheeple but not us on this site who have looked a little deeper
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:40:44

The big question is, when was the switch made? When did the economy start working for the rich rather than the ordinary man? Of course, it's always worked for the rich. So, when did what the ordinary man could get start to go away, and why? The answer is political, I think.

You can't really talk about this without talking about the labor movement. I don't want to, for reasons of not wishing this thread to go that way, so I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say that those less well off will always have to organize in order to get what they want. When they are successful, they will receive backlash. That backlash will come not just in the form of rich people groaning about them when they are asked. The rich will come after the power they have lost. Losing power means losing money! They will try to ensure that loss doesn't happen again.

Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, someone once said. That vigilance isn't about packing, or jiu jitsu. It's about telling yourself the truth and not cutting yourself off from your emotions. We live in a world where our attitudes concerning things like unionization are mostly shaped by the rich, and our own desire to take advantage of loopholes that exist for us to make gains if we abandon the positions of our fathers. There's nothing wrong with looking after yourself. You just have to understand that when you take that plunge you do it alone. There are no guarantees beyond the economic truth of the time you entered the fray. Those you contract with don't necessarily have to keep their word. That can change with the economy. When that changes you will still be alone.

Since at least the 70's this has been the case. And, as if union leadership were any more on the ball, there hasn't been much to encourage working stiffs coming from unions as a result of the pressures felt over the decades. What they've mostly done has been to preserve the old guard at the expense of the new. They basically agreed with the idea that there should be a vanishing generation of pensioners, and no more after them. I suppose that's fair, though, because they could see who was working vs. who might be down the road. It's bird in the hand thinking. Somehow, tomorrow's youth didn't make the grade. Now we've got that same problem throughout society, on a generational basis. All of us loners are also picking what is in the hand. Today's youth are making do with something that costs a lot more for them to participate in at the same level as those who came before them.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3729
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Stopped at the Border.

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 12:09:03

onlooker wrote:Refers to this point I just made

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... poorest-50
The world’s eight richest billionaires control the same wealth between them as the poorest half of the globe’s population, according to a charity warning of an ever-increasing and dangerous concentration of wealth.

In a report published to coincide with the start of the week-long World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Oxfam said it was “beyond grotesque” that a handful of rich men headed by the Microsoft founder Bill Gates are worth $426bn (£350bn), equivalent to the wealth of 3.6 billion people.

The development charity called for a new economic model to reverse an inequality trend that it said helped to explain Brexit and Donald Trump’s victory in the US presidential election.


Oxfam blamed rising inequality on aggressive wage restraint, tax dodging and the squeezing of producers by companies, adding that businesses were too focused on delivering ever-higher returns to wealthy owners and top executives.

The World Economic Forum (WEF) said last week that rising inequality and social polarisation posed two of the biggest risks to the global economy in 2017 and could result in the rolling back of globalisation.



Onlooker,

The problem with that thinking is the difference between Digitized wealth and value. Think of that Mindy as a Bernie Madof scheme. If that “valuation” went away no one would die. You can loose what does not exist.

Now if a billion buys something tangible then he has some wealth. Stocks, may represent true value. Just look at all the sitcom billionaires who lost everything when their valuation went pooof.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 12:12:16

Good detailed analysis Evil. However, if I may broaden the scope of it. The essence of Capitalism was never intended to work for the ordinary person or poor person. It has always been about the ownership class. As much as some here like to discredit Marxism, that did correctly identify the class struggle at the root of Capitalism. We in the US have been shielded to this because of the almost unique positiion of the US as being the wealthiest country in the world. So, the industrialists obviously knew they needed a decently paid working class to buy the products made available by the Industrial Revolution. Think Thomas Edison said something to that effect regarding paying sufficient wages to the workers so they could buy the cars.

Now, what we have is undeneath all this is the basic irrevocable limits to growth. More people. less accessible resources etc. Then, we also have the machinations of the Ownership class via the Stock Market and policies of the US govt to weaken the middle and poor class. This is cyclical. But what is different is this time not enough to go around for everyone. So, US is beginning to resemble more the rest of the world where it is just the rich and poor , no middle class. But in summary, this is the nature of Capitalism in allowing Capital to use its advantages to attain ever more capital. So a concentration of wealth. That is how it works. And now workers can be attained worldwide for pennies on the dollar, ergo US layoffs and downsizing. The dream of Capitalists to have the entire Earth to exploit and Globalization was their tool
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 12:16:37

Newfie, while in theory what you say is correct. In reality, you and I and others know it is not. The digitized wealth is real because the system says its real. Even now the rich are buying up state of the art bunkers , with the plan to ride out serious existential disturbances, right now they are swimmng in pools, dining in fancy restaurants etc. Can they lose this "money" of course yes. But what their money buys is quite real.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 14:02:23

onlooker wrote:Newfie, while in theory what you say is correct. In reality, you and I and others know it is not. The digitized wealth is real because the system says its real.

But, as Newfie implied, only as long as the system agrees it's real. And as we all know, the system can change it's perceptions, and sometimes quickly.

Of course, this is true with all markets which is why I think diversification is the most important aspect of investing (i.e. for the long term -- vs. speculation). This is why I keep significant investments in ex-US stocks, some gold and silver, etc. The beltway clowns seem less and less reliable to me as time goes on.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 14:20:44

The beltway clowns seem less and less reliable to me as time goes on.

At least we can agree on that :-D
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Cog » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 15:13:01

onlooker wrote: Think Thomas Edison said something to that effect regarding paying sufficient wages to the workers so they could buy the cars.



That was Henry Ford.

If you are going to engage in class struggle at least get the quotes right. :lol:

Yeah I get you quasi-socialists here hate capitalism here in preference for your end goal of communism. But at least make an effort to convince us poor old rednecks that you have a clue that you understand are talking about. Maybe use Venezuela has an example. This time we will get it right?

Rich people are evil
Rich people need to be taxed more
Then everything will be fair.

Yeah nothing new under the sun here.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Cog » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 15:17:43

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
onlooker wrote:Newfie, while in theory what you say is correct. In reality, you and I and others know it is not. The digitized wealth is real because the system says its real.

But, as Newfie implied, only as long as the system agrees it's real. And as we all know, the system can change it's perceptions, and sometimes quickly.

Of course, this is true with all markets which is why I think diversification is the most important aspect of investing (i.e. for the long term -- vs. speculation). This is why I keep significant investments in ex-US stocks, some gold and silver, etc. The beltway clowns seem less and less reliable to me as time goes on.


So your objection to tariffs and Trump in particular is that its hurting your portfolio? Doesn't sound too progressive of you comrade. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Trump is hurting the foreign markets and now Outcast Searcher is outraged. Cry me a river man.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 16:21:49

onlooker wrote:Newfie, while in theory what you say is correct. In reality, you and I and others know it is not. The digitized wealth is real because the system says its real. Even now the rich are buying up state of the art bunkers , with the plan to ride out serious existential disturbances, right now they are swimmng in pools, dining in fancy restaurants etc. Can they lose this "money" of course yes. But what their money buys is quite real.


Monopoly money is “real” within the boundaries of the game. Actually it’s more real than greenbacks, because greenbacks are not recognized within the game.

Once you step outside the “game” then those billions the billionaires have loose all value to you. But that’s up to you, in the game or outside the game. Blue pill or red?

And if you need proof look what those rich folks are doing, using bunkers. Why? Because they realize they are in the game and they are seeking ways to move the virtual or digital money into something with intrinsic value. They are hedging outside the game.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 17:15:46

Cog wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
onlooker wrote:Newfie, while in theory what you say is correct. In reality, you and I and others know it is not. The digitized wealth is real because the system says its real.

But, as Newfie implied, only as long as the system agrees it's real. And as we all know, the system can change it's perceptions, and sometimes quickly.

Of course, this is true with all markets which is why I think diversification is the most important aspect of investing (i.e. for the long term -- vs. speculation). This is why I keep significant investments in ex-US stocks, some gold and silver, etc. The beltway clowns seem less and less reliable to me as time goes on.


So your objection to tariffs and Trump in particular is that its hurting your portfolio? Doesn't sound too progressive of you comrade. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Trump is hurting the foreign markets and now Outcast Searcher is outraged. Cry me a river man.

You're so predictable. Myopic. Often wrong. Aften making bad assumptions. But predictable. So congrats on that, I guess.

First, for the umpteenth time, I'm a moderate, not a progressive as you constantly assume and misstate. No matter how many times you're told. In fact, on financial matters I'm more likely to come out on the conservative end of the spectrum. But I know, if it's not the bat-shit crazy far right end of the spectrum you inhabit, it's far left. Got it.

Note how when I mentioned "beltway clowns", I didn't specify which ones, implying that means ALL of them, both liberal and conservative? I didn't mention Trump at all, unless I'm missing it. I didn't mention trade at all, unless I'm missing it. You seem to be so wound up about defending Trump that you attack anybody who MIGHT even say something about Trump? If you were a domestic house dog, you'd be biting all the neighbors if they walked by your yard. :razz:

I'm not happy with much of Trump's stupidity, of which mindless tariffs are one of his lack-of-good-sense worse examples. The foreign markets (i.e. ex-US overall) have been generally underperforming the US market overall for roughly a decade, and cumulatively by a LOT in the past decade, BTW.

If you're going to spout nonsense aobut my concerns, try having a clue about what you're talking about first. Then you'd have more chance of getting at least part of it right. :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Pops » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 19:28:20

evilgenius wrote:The big question is, when was the switch made?
...We live in a world where our attitudes concerning things like unionization are mostly shaped by the rich, and our own desire to take advantage of loopholes that exist for us ...

good rant.
Unions boomed in the run up to WWII, then held steady until after Vietnam- and the GI Bill. College education and the Meritocracy made people believe they were no longer "labor" but part of management. At the same time came containerization, which drastically reduced the cost of importing cheap stuff made cheap by cheap labor, giving the ownership a huge cudgel over workers. And of course automation/digital communication kicked in that made the overseas branch office just as accessible as the one down the street.

Image
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby GHung » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 19:38:57

Can you say disproportionate share? Betcha some of you can't.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 16:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby GHung » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 19:56:09

Jeez, O_S, don't confuse Cog with pragmatic arguments. He needs his value/judgement-based world view just to exist.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 16:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 20:08:16

GHung wrote:Jeez, O_S, don't confuse Cog with pragmatic arguments. He needs his value/judgement-based world view just to exist.

OK. I stand guilty of maybe doing that. I just don't like being repeatedly accused of being an "X", when I've (at least IMO) repeatedly given examples of why I'm NOT an X, and explained why I'm not an X.

The funny thing is, I'm usually accused of being a far right conservative as ideas like my being so against any form of rent control or against adding on more government programs (and taxes) are so far from what any sane person would call traditional liberal thinking in modern America.

So then I'll point out my liberal attitudes about things like sexual identity/preference, abortion, medical insurance, religion, etc. and ask if they're SURE I'm really a hard right winger.

At least most of the time, those folks don't come right back and say they know I'm a hard right winger. :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby mmasters » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 20:36:47

I think any POer would be for Trump tariffs. Bringing back the jobs and the products from overseas makes not only for a better product in many cases but the US is less vulnerable/dependent on other countries and more self sufficient. It's a better scenario post peak.
User avatar
mmasters
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sun 16 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Mid-Atlantic

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Cog » Fri 13 Jul 2018, 20:53:01

mmasters wrote:I think any POer would be for Trump tariffs. Bringing back the jobs and the products from overseas makes not only for a better product in many cases but the US is less vulnerable/dependent on other countries and more self sufficient. It's a better scenario post peak.


Yes one would think a peak oiler would understand this concept, but self-sufficiency is now a curse word in the community. It means you are racist or something worse. If you wish to share the pain of the third world, then you should move there instead of trying to bring it here.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

PreviousNext

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 37 guests

cron