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THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 May 2015, 07:31:47

Don't forget before WW2 it was the GOP and the British Conservatives that were just fine with cutting a deal with Hitler. It was the Democrats that were willing to fight Hitler and Mussolini. The trade unions were willing to fight Hitler, while their bosses were cutting deals.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 30 May 2015, 08:43:35

PrestonSturges wrote:Don't forget before WW2 it was the GOP and the British Conservatives that were just fine with cutting a deal with Hitler. It was the Democrats that were willing to fight Hitler and Mussolini. The trade unions were willing to fight Hitler, while their bosses were cutting deals.


Who cares? If you paid attention at all, early on in the thread the point was made that "Nazi" does not equal "Fascist".

YES, the Nazi's were Fascists, among other things. But the Democrats are the modern face of Fascism in America, and have been all along, ever since the founder of the Democratic Party first slaughtered Indians, then forcibly removed then from their ancestral tribal lands to reservations to make room for white settlers. Andrew Jackson was also a plantation-owning slave holder, and a lifetime advocate of slavery.

In the 40 years prior to the Civil War, the solid Democratic South was pro-slavery, the Quakers of New England gave birth to the anti-slavery movement that eventually resulted in the founding of Liberia, the first democracy in Africa, as a home for freed American black slaves. The abolitionist cause grew until Abraham Lincoln founded the Republican Party, and the open conflict of the Civil War freed those slaves. Whereupon the South, still solidly Democratic, oppressed Black people up until the Civil Rights movement.

This is History. Even though the Kennedys used the Civil Rights issue as a means of reforming the Democratic Party in the 1960's, many things never changed, and the Authoritarian - to speak plainly - the Fascist nature of the Democratic Party, has never changed. They are still all about curtailing the freedoms of other Americans, for a whole variety of reasons.

The Republicans are about promoting business, of course. They believe that the production of wealth enhances the freedom of all US citizens.

For the record, I don't find my own beliefs reflected in either major party, which is why I never joined either party. I certainly have voted for more third party candidates throughout my life, although I have also voted for both Democrats and Republicans.

But I will not stand for the re-writing of History, either. The Democratic party has a long history of the oppression of minorities. Once you make the adult transition where you look at the actual results of the major party planks and ignore the rhetoric, then no other conclusion is possible, the Republicans are still seeking wealth and prosperity for all Americans, and the Democrats are still oppressing people of color.

If you doubt that, then pause one moment and reflect upon the true and completely oppressive effects of modern Welfare, Affirmative Action, Urban Renewal, the War on Poverty, the War on Drugs, etc. etc. NONE of these programs did what they set out to do, in the end, they were all about repressing minorities, no matter what their stated intent.

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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 30 May 2015, 09:46:39

KaiserJeep wrote:That would be because Democrats are trying to force people to behave differently, curtailing personal freedoms.


There's always another side here, KJ. You seem to only be concerned with the personal freedoms of the Koch Brothers and Hobby Lobby rather than, let's say, people who want to get an abortion or gays who want to marry.

KaiserJeep wrote:Mankind is the species that builds, via collective effort.


You're the one who is wrong, because you don't realize all that civilization is built on the backs of the house of cards of stored sunlight. It's a one-time bounty only. There ain't no warp drive comin' down the pike to save the day, KJ. Progress is going to turn and bend downward in the end. Sorry to burst your bubble.

KaiserJeep wrote:he did his level best to get us on alternative energy, specifically wind energy.


Only to the extent it could make him a profit. His only interest was sticking it to the "ayrabs". He doesn't give a crap about the environment. And since the fracking boom he gave up on wind, for the most part.

KaiserJeep wrote:The natural resources you speak of are effectively unlimited, and there is no need to do anything sustainably


Nice sentiment. So you don't care about all the other living species we're driving to extinction as long as we've got some other planet to expand onto?

And what if we don't? What if you're wrong and this cradle of a planet is all we've got? What do you suggest we do? Just shrug our shoulders and fight the apocalypse?

KaiserJeep wrote:If YOU want to live sustainably, then renounce the works of mankind. Live in a cave and dress in animal skins.


This hypocrisy argument is so tired and worn, KJ.

KaiserJeep wrote:But don't go deviating from sustainable life in any way. Don't go digging flint out of the Earth and knapping arrowheads and spear points out of it.


This is an attempt to just shut down the discussion via reductio ad absurdum.

The first step is for everyone to realize the situation we're in, and that latching onto Interstellar fantasies is not constructive. You can't seem to get beyond infantile politics and technophile fantasies.

KaiserJeep wrote:THINK about how you are living your life, and not about the unreal and unworkable plans of those who believe this planet we live on is an organism with a disease called mankind. Also, to come full circle, consider giving up the Fascist ideals of the Democratic Party.


So the democratic party is the root of all evils? What kind of fantasy-land do you live in, KJ? If only things were so simple.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 30 May 2015, 13:46:06

I understand the nature of stored sunlight as fossilized carbon fuels. I understand our dependencies on them. I have done the basic arithmetic calculation, using the massive overshoot population and the massive consumption of energy that goes with modern life not only in the USA but in second and third world nations, and reached the elementary conclusion that feeble forms of renewable energy are insufficient to keep the bulk of humanity alive. I know that - barring the discovery of a miraculous new energy source - they are all going to die, and I understand that in their struggle to live, seven billion humans will burn every accessible drop of oil and every lump of coal. They will consume edible plants and animals to extinction. Eventually they will convert all organic material to synthetic food. The Earth will die back to the lower forms of life, perhaps even single celled lifeforms.

The only hope for the species is to escape into space. That is it, that is all there is. At most, a few tens of thousands will escape before the billions complete the destruction of the planetary ecology.

There then remain two possibilities:

1. Everybody on Earth dies.

2. Everybody on Earth dies. Those few who live in space continue the human race.

That is all there is, there are no other possibilities. Mother Earth or Gaia or whatever term you use for the imaginary organism that is the Earth is not gonna create a superbug that kills everybody but you and your friends, no matter how much you wish it. The aliens from the remake of The Day the Earth Stood Still are not going to reset the human race and give us all a second chance. Jesus is not returning to transport us to heaven. Everybody on Earth dies.

Humans live on in space, or nowhere.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 30 May 2015, 15:22:53

KaiserJeep wrote:Humans live on in space, or nowhere.


I 100% agree with you, on the space stuff.

Why is it that green party, eco types, don't see this as well? They actually don't even support space funding. Which I don't get. If you love / are fascinated by nature on planet earth, how can one just be blind to what's above one's head, beyond the clouds, up there?

The entire solar system is all "nature," and the galaxy and universe beyond.

Your view, KS, is the same as professor stephen hawkings etc. Smart people have already figured this out, that long term, for many reasons our species has GOT to branch off of this planet. It should be our #1 imperative. This beautiful world we have, has a limited shelf life, and will evolve and change anyway, as nature does everyhwere. We could have another snowball earth. Who knows, we could all be wiped out, all life on earth, and perhaps there's still time for it to evolve all over again -- that actually happened many times in earth's history. Life appeared, got rolling, then got all wiped out. Then started again.

In about 4 billion years -- the sun goes red giant and swallows the planet. No more earth at all.

Climate change, nuclear war risk, global pandemic disease risk -- we need to branch off just this planet.

What we're living in right now, this golden age of tech while still having such a beautiful environment, is just a WINDOW of opportunity and a NEST to get wings and take flight out of here.

The nest won't last forever, no matter how much we care for it and preserve it and what to stay just here forever -- really we are not even meant to do that, just staying in the nest. The whole POINT of the earth, likely, was a springboard to bigger things.

I'm all for protecting the environment, but we need the spaceships too. Both are just as important and really, the latter is more important because the latter is the future. Those last few guys on easter island -- yes, they should have worked to save the last trees, but they should also have been making a boat to get off the island!

edit: just to note, I'm not saying we don't need to look after the environment here on earth, actually if you know about space issues then you realize how special and rare our home really is. There are likely ten thousand ish gorgeous other "earth" in this galaxy alone, with not only life but intelligent life. Intelligent life is the rarest category, then if you branch out from there, there could be hundreds of thousands of beautiful "earths" that have diverse life have eco systems but not intelligent life.

The problem is that all these planets are so far away from each other. These distances will take a long time to overcome. But they aren't impossible. Give it another thousand years of tech development and we'll have warp travel. NASA has a team on warp drive already -- and that team has ALREADY made advancements in effeciency (I forget his name, the lead on the team redesigned the theoretical warp tube / torus thing, in such a way that the theory is a lot more within reach now, it would take magnitudes less energy than was thought before.

Give that a thousand more years develop, heck probably maybe only a hundred years, and we'll have warp drive.

Anyhow I just wanted to add though that of course earth is very special and have to do all we can, I'm just saying that funding space tech is even more important to our species' survival. Living in space and moons / mars would be a hostile environment (at first, maybe terraforming long term).

So look at it this way, if we develop the ability to live in space then we'd just be prepared to live in hostile environments on earth too.

We just have to plan for all eventualities.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 May 2015, 17:47:57

The problem with the "everything is fascism" theory is that religion goes right to the top of the fascism list. Also, fascism practically always come with an official state religion.
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As far as the rest of the rant. it's pretty much word for word the Anders Breivik terrorist manifesto. He said over and over he was not a Nazi, he was just a Nordic Christian white supremacist who wants to kill most of the Jews and deport the survivors.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 30 May 2015, 18:27:22

How tragic is it that you two can see a game of space themed soggy biscuit as relevant? (KJ& 6). Just another silly religion in reality.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sat 30 May 2015, 18:39:03

Fifty years ago anyone who didn't stand with the fundamentalists was a card carrying Comie. I guess you can scapegoat any group by developing a narrative to fit, no matter how much it tortures the reality. It's a game as old as mankind.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 30 May 2015, 18:53:30

I didn't develop any narrative. The Democratic Party really was founded by an unrepentant bunch of white supremacists. The Southern states really did suppress minorities, and there was a Democrat under every KKK sheet.

The times are different today. But ask yourself if every single government program to merge minorities into mainstream American society would have failed unless they were designed to fail, intended to fail, and managed for failure. Tell me that the Democrats are not still oppressing people of color.

Tell me the existence of a political machine is not repressive, authoritarian, and Fascist.

Sooner or later, everybody learns to look past the rhetoric and examine what the politicians are actually doing. Seldom does the reality bear any resemblance to the words.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sat 30 May 2015, 19:09:37

KaiserJeep wrote:I didn't develop any narrative. The Democratic Party really was founded by an unrepentant bunch of white supremacists. The Southern states really did suppress minorities, and there was a Democrat under every KKK sheet.

The times are different today. But ask yourself if every single government program to merge minorities into mainstream American society would have failed unless they were designed to fail, intended to fail, and managed for failure. Tell me that the Democrats are not still oppressing people of color.

Tell me the existence of a political machine is not repressive, authoritarian, and Fascist.

Sooner or later, everybody learns to look past the rhetoric and examine what the politicians are actually doing. Seldom does the reality bear any resemblance to the words.


Nice try, but for everything you implyed the same and more could be attributed to the so called faciest behavior of Republicans, The Tea Party and Libertarians. It's all just lame ​Neo-McCarthyism rhetoric.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 May 2015, 19:20:12

KaiserJeep wrote:\But ask yourself if every single government program to merge minorities into mainstream American society would have failed unless they were designed to fail, intended to fail, and managed for failure. Tell me that the Democrats are not still oppressing people of color.


Explain to us how minorities are too dumb to grasp this so that they need the kindly but firm guidance of doughy old white guys like you.....
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 30 May 2015, 19:29:21

Point of fact, I don't think that. I believe there is fierce resentment in most minority groups of this very thing. I just do not think that minority influence counts for much in American government.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sat 30 May 2015, 19:33:03

PrestonSturges wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:\But ask yourself if every single government program to merge minorities into mainstream American society would have failed unless they were designed to fail, intended to fail, and managed for failure. Tell me that the Democrats are not still oppressing people of color.


Explain to us how minorities are too dumb to grasp this so that they need the kindly but firm guidance of doughy old white guys like you.....


What a bunch of convoluted conspiracy nonsense. Let's see the Democratic Party actually created legislation to expand racial equality, but really designed these policies to fail. Obviously, minority's were, as said, just to dimwitted to see through this scheme. :lol:

Oh, and conservatives fought like hell trying to defeat such laws thereby really attempting to save the repressed and befuddled minority groups. This really sounds like it came right out of the Fox News echo chamber. :lol:
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 30 May 2015, 19:45:45

KaiserJeep wrote: merge minorities into mainstream American society
Are you saying that is good or bad?

Over in your "beacon of democracy", "assimilation" is a dirty word:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=israel+assimilation
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 30 May 2015, 20:10:02

I think it would be a good thing to keep the cliche'd "melting pot" in action. I think that government policies that promote "diversity" end up creating divisions across ethnic groups, and promote racial strife.

All of which is actually off-topic for this thread. I have observed that the group in America that most acts to impose it's own agenda on Americans, repressing personal freedoms in the process, is the Democratic Party. Then I pointed out that this very behavior, forcing people to behave in accordance with the desire of someone else, is Fascist. Then I made a convincing argument about why that was so.

Now you are seeking to change the topic. I take it then that there are no convincing arguments to refute mine. Saying that something is not true, or is "conspiracy nonsense", or anything remotely similar, is not an argument with any merit. I supported my assertions with actual Historic facts. Now you can accept my argument, refute it with a fact-based argument5 of your own, or waste time making meaningless comments.

THINK about what I said. Think hard, about what politicians do versus what they say they are doing.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sat 30 May 2015, 20:25:00

No, it's you that ran the topic off and then when confronted with your break in logic declare it off topic. As I said responding to labeling any modern U.S. Political party as faciest is a futile excersise since examples could be pinned to most of them. This is just name calling, backed up with some crazy talk. You just don't care to admit that. Your arguments are essentially a non sequitur.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 30 May 2015, 20:45:44

KaiserJeep wrote:I think it would be a good thing to keep the cliche'd "melting pot" in action. I think that government policies that promote "diversity" end up creating divisions across ethnic groups, and promote racial strife.

All of which is actually off-topic for this thread.

FTA:
12. ... You believe in legalized discrimination and fantasize about a return to times when the races were separate or when those of color were enslaved. You use code words in an attempt to hide your racism and you make laws that weaken the influence of those of color. Immigration and voting laws in particular.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 May 2015, 21:12:20

KaiserJeep wrote:Then I pointed out that this very behavior, forcing people to behave in accordance with the desire of someone else, is Fascist. Then I made a convincing argument about why that was so.


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Fascist

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Fascists

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Fascists
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 30 May 2015, 22:00:01

PrestonSturges wrote:The problem with the "everything is fascism" theory is that religion goes right to the top of the fascism list. Also, fascism practically always come with an official state religion.


Yes, that's true. Characteristics of right wing fascism are that it's a strong man despot leader married to the Church, plus married to business. State, busines, church -- all one thing joined in alliance with each other, while humanism and intellectuals and leftists are suppressed.

For example, Putin is an atheist, yet strategically he allied with the orthodox church. And pushes hot button social issues.

Which is exactly what our republicans have always done, too.

Which is the same thing Hitler did, as well.

And every other fascist dictator there's ever been, from Mussolini to Franco to Pinochet in Chile to whoever that one dictator was in fascist Argentina, that invaded the Falkland islands in the 80s.

State + the Church + business + right wing populism and militarism, + some minority group to get the common people hating on, that's what fascism is.

And comments like, "he makes us feel proud of ourselves" and "he makes the trains run on time." That's what they said of Hitler, and Mussolini and to be fair a lot of that is said of Putin, too. It's not that people agree with him, it's "he makes us proud of ourselves" and that he makes things work, and trains run on time.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 30 May 2015, 22:40:49

Fascism...............Communism
Religious...............Atheist
Spiritual................Crackpot science
Privatization...........Nationalization
Utopian past...........Utopian future
Racist ..................Racism is a bug, not a feature
Pure Blood/Spirit .....Human nature can be molded by the state
Stop class warfare ... Promote "class struggle"

And of course the Nazis said the only real racism was reverse racism against white people.
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