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THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 29 May 2015, 00:51:07

Do we have a Holocaust denier in the house?
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby sparky » Fri 29 May 2015, 01:10:10

.
If you consider the holocaust as 6 millions Jews gassed , Well that's debatable

if you consider than after subtractions from casualties of war , broad based concentration camp deaths ,
local extermination of villages and urban population by special squads in the Eastern front
there is still about 3 millions Jews not accounted for , most seen the last time heading for four specific locations
Auschwitz-Birkenau , Treblinka , Belzec and sobibor ,
it seems that Chelmno was more of an experimental first attempt ,
their technique of gas van was found to be inefficient .

this would put the killing of jews second in the mass murder ranking
just behind the death of 3,5 millions soviet war prisoners shot and starved to death
not by the Nazis but by those nice officers of the Wehrmacht
a few millions Soviet civilians were also killed or starved by those not so Nazis officers who had no objection in carrying the most extreme orders such as having to refuse any offer of surrender of the besieged city of Leningrad ( 600.000 starved)
or implementing the start of the "hunger plan " to get rid of 30 millions Soviet city dwellers through starvation
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 29 May 2015, 01:28:07

sparky wrote:If you consider the holocaust as 6 millions Jews gassed , Well that's debatable

Nope, it's officially decreed fact, as with 9/11, the Kennedy assassination and the USS Liberty.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 29 May 2015, 01:43:08

See if "Fascism = Nothing Specific" then Hitler was merely a crackpot, and the Nazis were basically just misunderstood.

And if the Holocaust didn't happen, then there really is no reason to not have Nazi candidates, is there?

See? Just erase the definition of "Fascism" and the Holocaust, and the Nazis are back!
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 29 May 2015, 02:19:38

There sure are a lot of Fascists on here trying fervently to pin the label on Liberals or Progressives. (They are not the same thing.)

These are Fascists.
Image

These are Fascists.
1453385_563265287074825_1492756770_n.jpg


Progressivism is the specifically American development of liberal populism that seeks social and economic justice above all else, most specifically with reference to the obstacles posed to social and economic justice by large corporations and banks. Though Progressives strongly support civil liberties, the "progress" in Progressivism lies, most fundamentally, with ensuring, as the American pledge to the flag puts it, "justice for all".


Do you really think that is the goal of those in the images above?
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 29 May 2015, 03:28:32

PrestonSturges wrote:Kaiser Jeep, you and I have been down this road several times - your most dear beliefs are right out of Mein Kampf. "Liberals Fascism" and Glenn Beck are Mein Kampf for people in trailer parks with basic cable. Nazism was for extremely conservative white rural Christian antisemites, and Germany had millions of them.


"Fascism" is not "mein kampf," or germany per se, nor Italy where the word came from.

Around the same time -- the grim dark days of the great depression -- the US had guys like Huey Long of Louisiana. Populist, wildly popular, utterly crooked and corrupt and a total dictator. Not a rabbit moved in Louisiana, without Huey Long's say so.

He got in the US senate, and handpicked the new governor. And then he still controlled state government. It was like a "Putin and Medvedev" situation, same thing.

Dictators are dictators. There's two kinds of populism -- left wing and right wing, and either one or both spring up when the broad masses of people are ignored too much, by the rich.

This goes all the way back to ancient rome. The "demagogues." They were usually tribunes of the plebs -- a position normally bought off and bribed by the rich, but every now and then, they'd get a real firebrand in there. And then, some dictators were populist and drew their support base from the people rather than the elite (the very word dictator was a title appointed by the Roman senate, intended for extremely troubled times, when only one man rule could get the city through. And then the dictator was supposed to step down and the Senate resume. Some of the dictators decided to stay).

Gaius gracchus, "Tribune of the People:"

Image

So you see, this stuff's been going on for thousands of years and it's just the same old sh*t. :lol:

Dictionary definition of "fascism:"

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.


I guess I would say, racism and xenophobia are the primary elements of a "mein kampf" type of fascist.

Anyhow.. "fascism" is bad.. a dictator is a dictator, lefist or rightist and they both squash freedom and turn into little tyrants.. sometimes it's a thin line though, for example Republicans at the time called FDR a "dictator." From FDR's viewpoint, the country was near to turmoil and collapse and people were starving, so he was gonna do what had to be done to save the place, whether Republicans liked it or not.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 29 May 2015, 07:03:38

Here is an ardent Fascist and a famous Democrat, all the same person:
Image
Mayor Richard J. Daley,Sr. who ruled Chicago from 1955-1976.

His oppressive Democratic machine is still in place, and now serves the likes of Jesse Jackson, Barack Obama's stooge Rahm Emanuel, and former Governor and current prisoner Rob Blagojevich. Daley's Gestapo-like tactics used on the student protesters of the 1968 Democratic Party convention are infamous. They followed quickly after Daley's attacks upon the Black street protesters following MLK's assassination that same year. Democratic machines still exist in Detroit, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and New Orleans, among others. A long history of voter frauds, corrupt administrations, influence peddling, and the general oppression and persecution of the local Republicans.

Image

All of it dates back to the original Democratic machine, the Tammany Hall Democrats who started when NYC was called "New Amsterdam", and ruled the city up until the 1960's. Fascists all.

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"Boss" Tweed of Tammany Hall

My earliest memories are of living in Metairie, a white suburb of New Orleans, while in grade school. The then Governor was Earl Long, younger brother of the Kingfish. He ruled the state from inside the State Asylum where his wife had had him committed for good and sufficient reasons. He later escaped and publicly shacked up with a stripper named Blaze Starr, and everybody knew it. I was 9 years old and in the third grade, but I was reading the newspaper even then.

Image

How quickly we forget the past and ongoing actions of classic Democratic Fascists. How unconvincingly we make excuses for conduct that simply has no justification, where honest people are concerned.

Now speak your words and try to justify such behavior. Try and tell us that Democratic Party machine bosses are not Authoritarian Fascists. Display your true colors as an apologist for current and still active American Fascists.

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.
Robert A. Heinlein


I have no such desire - I champion personal freedom and personal responsibility. If you are fond of saying things like "There oughtta be a law...." then call yourself what you are, which is a Fascist.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 29 May 2015, 10:41:15

This thread is really showing people's true colors.

KJ, do you have anything better to do than to slander liberals at around the same intellectual level of a right-wing AM talk show host?
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby hvacman » Fri 29 May 2015, 11:32:38

social and economic justice by large corporations and banks


A lot of rhetoric in that statement. Will someone "Progressive" please define "social and economic 'justice'" for me? And please describe where the legal (or moral) dividing line is between "large" corporations and other corporations. And regarding banks. Does this mean ALL banks? How about the small regional banks? (Yes, the US has 1000's)_ Do they owe "social and economic 'justice'" to ALL, or can they just be in business to earn some money for their local stockholder-owners?

Specifics, please....
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Fri 29 May 2015, 11:50:34

Yes, both large and small businesses have a responsibility to social justice and well being as long as they operate within the system and use the benifits provided by it.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 29 May 2015, 12:44:06

KaiserJeep wrote:But the State of Israel is a shining beacon of hope, a representative Democracy that has the highest standard of living in the entire Middle East - and attracts the envy of the states around it and the specific hatred of Muslim leaders who fear the spread of Democracy.
Supporters of the South African apartheid regime gave similar reasons. Were you a Nelson Mandala fan back then?
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby hvacman » Fri 29 May 2015, 13:13:49

I guess I still don't know what "economic and social justice" is in your definition. I hear that phrase so often in political speeches lately, but I am realizing I must be dense, because I really don't know what the heck they are talking about. This is personal. I own a significant % of shares of a small business - that is incorporated in California. Up until now, I had assumed we manage our business much like most corporations, large and small, throughout the US. I'd like to compare your definition of justice with our business practices and see if we are being economically and/or socially unjust with how we conduct our business.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 May 2015, 13:30:59

Lore wrote:Yes, both large and small businesses have a responsibility to social justice and well being as long as they operate within the system and use the benifits provided by it.

And how is "responsibility" defined? How about "social justice"?

A far left liberal will tend to have a very different opinion of those definitions than the typical far right winger.

So what definition do we use? Yours? A capitalist's? A Marxist's? Ronald Reagan's? Nancy Pelosi's?

How about the government first operate ethically and efficiently BEFORE we spend more money to make "the system" it wastefully "manages" even bigger? THEN it might make more sense pointing fingers at corporations AFTER we define our terms, of course.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 29 May 2015, 14:03:48

ennui2 wrote:This thread is really showing people's true colors.

KJ, do you have anything better to do than to slander liberals at around the same intellectual level of a right-wing AM talk show host?


ennui2, it simply should not be news to you that Democrat does not equal Liberal and Republican does not equal Conservative. That is in addition to the point we are trying to make here, which is that you can be either extremely Conservative or extremely Liberal, or sit on any part of the spectrum between those extremes, and still be a Fascist.

The Fascist simply wants to oppress others by forcing them to modify their behaviors. Progressive Fascists such as you or Lore or Obama simply say undefined things like "YOU didn't build that." or "responsibility to social justice" and then prescribe exactly how YOU want OTHER PEOPLE to behave.

How about we agree that we live in a country under the rule of law? How about we agree to do what the majority says, and not all of you Liberal Fascists? How about we leave the definition of "moral" to those in charge of whatever business we are talking about, and not a Liberal Peanut Gallery?

Keith, the problem of Apartheid never came up for me. My employer was a Liberal Silly Valley corporation that publically announced that we would not sell or support products in South Africa during Apartheid, and then publicly announced the end of that policy when Apartheid ended. Which may have had more to do with the fact that one of the Marketing Vice-Presidents was South African, but living in Silly Valley.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 29 May 2015, 15:48:17

KaiserJeep wrote:ennui2, it simply should not be news to you that Democrat does not equal Liberal and Republican does not equal Conservative.


Then why are you spending all your time excoriating democrats?

KaiserJeep wrote:"YOU didn't build that."


OK. Let's see how "outside of the box" you can think along these lines...

Who "builds" anything?

We know you are incapable of understanding ecological thinking. So consider this example.

T Boone Pickens is a fossil fuel tycoon. Did he really build anything or did he extract what was already there? He is now a LinkedIn Influencer and can tell us all how his success story is one of his own personal Ayn Randian virtues. It's not. He became rich by exploiting natural resources.

If you strip back the source of wealth, usually, at its base, is the extraction of natural resources. You just have to look back far enough. So there is no such thing as building other than via mother nature.

And consider (which I know you won't) that extraction and consumption is a one-way street. Then you'll see that the American myth of expansion and upward mobility is ultimately a zero-sum game by virtue of the drawdown of natural resources of all kinds. You seem to "get" that as far as the fossil fuel goes, but not overall carrying-capacity.

And so can you really cling to some libertarian ideal of small government? How exactly is that "sustainable"? It's not. You have a vestige of whatever ideology you had before becoming a peaker which doesn't really make sense outside of cognitive dissonance.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Timo » Fri 29 May 2015, 16:51:17

If you remove all of the personal animosities in this thread, there's actually a decent discussion going on here. Unfortunately, the back-and-forth namecalling is getting rather tedious, and makes it much more difficult to gain much of anything useful that anyone has to say.

And just for the record, i'm not excusing myself from that same company. I know i can get pissed off, just as easily as anyone else here. Overreation to anything is not a virtue to be proud of.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 29 May 2015, 17:50:54

Glenn Beck says "social justice" is a conspiracy!

http://youtu.be/CXWH8Wjo6gU

Also notice in this image that Beck says Hitler was for social justice.

Image


Well what does Hitler say? Yep, it's a conspiracy.

With infinite shrewdness he (the Jew) fans the need for social justice, somehow slumbering in every Aryan man, into hatred against those who have been better favored by fortune, ..... (note the GOP theme of "envy" there also) (Mein Kampf p349)


Jonah Goldberg started with with "Liberal Fascism" and Beck perfected it - lie to the audience about what Hitler said, then get them quoting Mein Kampf because they are convinced that's anti-Fascism.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby hvacman » Fri 29 May 2015, 18:16:16

Thanks for the link to Glenn Beck's take on the "justice" question. It certainly sounded Beck-ish. Didn't answer my question, though.

Hitler's quote from Mein Kampf was illuminating, in that it shows just how rhetorically-slippery the phrase "social justice" can be.

Still waiting for someone to just tell me what social and economic justice means in their own words. and...if they were "king or queen"..., what they would tell me I have to do to change my business practices to be more just.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 29 May 2015, 18:56:14

hvacman wrote:Thanks for the link to Glenn Beck's take on the "justice" question. It certainly sounded Beck-ish. Didn't answer my question, though.

Hitler's quote from Mein Kampf was illuminating, in that it shows just how rhetorically-slippery the phrase "social justice" can be.

Still waiting for someone to just tell me what social and economic justice means in their own words. and...if they were "king or queen"..., what they would tell me I have to do to change my business practices to be more just.


If I were King I would tell you a Just business does not lie, cheat or steal from the customers. So long as you provide the goods or services promised in the manner agreed upon for the price agreed at the time then you are just in my eyes. Reasonable allowances for circumstances beyond your control will be considered reasonable, but lying to get business under false promises is not just.

Social justice in my Kingdom means equality before the law. In practice this means no private lawyers in court, all lawyers are government employees working for a salary to seek justice for their client of the case, not to get rich from serving the desires of powerful companies or wealthy individuals. Plaintiff and Defense lawyers alternate on every case and are assigned at random.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 30 May 2015, 07:01:37

ennui2 wrote:
Then why are you spending all your time excoriating democrats?


That would be because Democrats are trying to force people to behave differently, curtailing personal freedoms. In other words, Democrats doing what comes natural pretty much equals Democrats being Fascists, which is in fact the topic of this thread.

ennui2 wrote:OK. Let's see how "outside of the box" you can think along these lines...

Who "builds" anything?

We know you are incapable of understanding ecological thinking. So consider this example.

T Boone Pickens is a fossil fuel tycoon. Did he really build anything or did he extract what was already there? He is now a LinkedIn Influencer and can tell us all how his success story is one of his own personal Ayn Randian virtues. It's not. He became rich by exploiting natural resources.

If you strip back the source of wealth, usually, at its base, is the extraction of natural resources. You just have to look back far enough. So there is no such thing as building other than via mother nature.


Completely and utterly wrong. Mankind is the species that builds, via collective effort. There are other species like beavers and termites and coral polyps, that build elaborate living quarters, but pretty much mankind alone builds power plants, electronic devices, spacecraft, and the myriad other things that comprise civilization.

You trashed T. Boone Pickens unnecessarily as well. Although he started as an oil man, he did his level best to get us on alternative energy, specifically wind energy. He was also an advocate of curtailing oil imports via electric automobiles for people, and running heavy trucks via compressed natural gas. He lost a lot of his personal wealth doing what he believed in doing, knowing it was a foolish way to behave - at least by the standards of a Texas oil man.

ennui2 wrote:And consider (which I know you won't) that extraction and consumption is a one-way street. Then you'll see that the American myth of expansion and upward mobility is ultimately a zero-sum game by virtue of the drawdown of natural resources of all kinds. You seem to "get" that as far as the fossil fuel goes, but not overall carrying-capacity.

And so can you really cling to some libertarian ideal of small government? How exactly is that "sustainable"? It's not. You have a vestige of whatever ideology you had before becoming a peaker which doesn't really make sense outside of cognitive dissonance.


The natural resources you speak of are effectively unlimited, and there is no need to do anything sustainably, because the Earth is just a place - the creche that gave birth to our species, and effectively "died" doing so, to express things in your foolish "living planet" vernacular. As we exceed the capacity of the Earth for anything, be it hydrocarbon energy or living space or any form of mineral wealth, we find other sources. There are for example, enough near-Earth asteroids to supply raw materials of every type to several times the current population of the Earth. There is enough water ice in the rings of Saturn to supply hundreds of Earths. Solar energy in space is effectively unlimited and has a duty cycle of 100%, not around 15% as it has on most of the Earth's surface.

Get with the program already. YOU get up every day and do your little part to preserve business as usual. YOU don't live your ideal, you live MINE, where mankind consciously trashes the Earth to promote the further welfare and the further expansion of the human race. There are more than six billion humans doing the same thing. Some of us do so consciously, others are fools who do so while whining about "Mother Earth" or some such foolishness. In the end, exactly the same effect, with the whiners looking foolish.

If YOU want to live sustainably, then renounce the works of mankind. Live in a cave and dress in animal skins. Give up medicine, plastics, electricity, unsustainable food from agriculture, and domesticated meats. Give up electronics, computers, and even those things which the unsustainable Amish allow themselves. If you NEVER post again in PO.com, then we will know by your absence that you finally got serious and decided to practice what you preach. THEN and only then will you earn my respect, because you behaved as you advocated that everyone behave.

But don't go deviating from sustainable life in any way. Don't go digging flint out of the Earth and knapping arrowheads and spear points out of it. Flint was the very first resource that the Kudzu Ape dug up and consumed faster than the slow Geological processes of the Earth could renew.

Or not - stay around and live the life I advocate. Use your PC or your Android Tablet or however you access PO.com, and in every way possible, save for your whining, demonstrate that you desire the exact same things as me, to the same extent I do. We will understand that, too.

Don't think I didn't notice your insult, either - I simply ignored it. Then I gave you honest, straight advice about your own actual feelings and thoughts, rather than a like insult. So THINK about how you are living your life, and not about the unreal and unworkable plans of those who believe this planet we live on is an organism with a disease called mankind. Also, to come full circle, consider giving up the Fascist ideals of the Democratic Party.
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