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The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 05:08:33

dohboi wrote:It's not just about preserving habitat and ecosystems.

We now have pretty well forced the future to come up with a way not only of drastically and totally eliminating carbon emissions from their energy and ag areas, they will also have to devise ways of sequestering vast amounts of CO2...and native grasslands are one of the best ways to do it, especially in these latitudes.

Native grasses have up to 90% of their mass underground, with roots often going down 15 feet or more. And since they die back and get easily buried in snow, in the winter and early spring months, albedo stays very high (versus forest, for example).

We desperately need to reduce both population and unequal distribution, and to change most people's lifestyle into (mostly) vegan diets if we want any chance of feeding anything like the whole population. But much land is needed in the mean time for this vital role of re-sequestering at least some of the carbon that we have so foolishly ripped out of its deep, safe, sequestered deposits and vomited into the atmosphere at rates of ten + of billions of tons a year.


I see an alternative to your vegan plan in returning those lands into grazing lands for vast herds of meat. The methane emission problem mostly comes from feeding beef cattle corn and soy beans instead of grass, which is their natural diet.

You are also fighting a losing gattle by repeating we need to sharply reduce population. No large groups are voluntarily eliminating themselves, s you are left with war, famine and disease. None of those are good for the ecosystems of the planet, both war and famine lead to mass dusruption of biomes. Disease is far to unpredictable a vector and if effective enough to rapidly shrink human presence is likely to jump species and devestate other creatures the same way Influnza infects many types of birds and many species of mammals.

Far better IMO to keep everyone fed and let the decline happen gradually as people choose to have fewer children because they are more prosperous and more healthy. I believe if we improve living standards and freedom of choice for women everywhere you will see birth rates drop to a much more sustainable replacement rate. It is lack of womens rights that is a major driver of population increase.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 09:54:55

Sub,
The problem with your proposal is that raising folks standard of living is hard on the eco system and even if effective it take longer than we have.

I don't know what the solution is, many ideas (including yours) could have worked but we didn't do it. Now it will be left to circumstances which will, as you aptly point out, be tough on Earth.

While I participate in the fantasizing about what we could/should do, my head tells me to expect the worse and plan for it.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 11:25:07

onlooker wrote:Asg, the politicians and their overlords are just a tiny fraction of humanity, And they do not represent the overriding sentiments of the masses who wish to see a better different world. They have succeeded in making themselves irrelevant because of their venal self serving greed and power lust. The words on this site and others like it are of the people, by the people and for the people


^^^ Delusions of grandeur.

Did you even watch the GOP convention? Go over to the Trump investigation thread and see plenty of tribal politics even here.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 12:10:01

asg70 wrote:
onlooker wrote:Asg, the politicians and their overlords are just a tiny fraction of humanity, And they do not represent the overriding sentiments of the masses who wish to see a better different world. They have succeeded in making themselves irrelevant because of their venal self serving greed and power lust. The words on this site and others like it are of the people, by the people and for the people


^^^ Delusions of grandeur.

Did you even watch the GOP convention? Go over to the Trump investigation thread and see plenty of tribal politics even here.

Quite frankly, I can't stant asg70? Can I say that? If so . . . oops! I said it lol

Onlooker's post is hopeful, suggests a solution to our gridlock is the collective recognition of our colonization (psychological as well as economic) by the wealthy and powerful. The first step. Next comes organizing for political and personal action. I have always lived like that.

How this can be seen as a delusion of grandeur is just really stupid and insulting. It makes me want to . . . :x
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 13:41:01

Yes, all of us have the potential to be petty and self serving but we also have the potential to be a lot more. As for the strand of thought between Newf Doh, and Sub, I think Sub that unfortunately Newf is right. Perhaps 30 to 40 years ago, those ideas might have flourished but it is too late now. Too many people and the entire Biosphere has been destabilized and degraded too much especially the climate system. This is an emergency and triage is needed and that means that we either find a way to reduce our population drastically and quickly or Nature will do it for us. Same with our industrial impacts
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 13:55:21

Newf, with more equitable distribution, it is not quite as hard to raise the poorest people's standards up to minimally acceptable levels without blowing the ecological budget.

Sub, you seem to have missed where I conceded that some of the buffalo or other ungulates that roam the newly established natural prairie could indeed go to the die-hard carnivores. That won't serve the world at US levels of carnivorousness, though.

And I wasn't talking about killing a bunch of people, just increasing the freedom of women, who mostly don't want to have tons of children, along with other strategies which have been shown to reduce reproduction rates. If Bangladesh can bring it's birth rate down from 7-8 kids per woman to 2-3, most of the rest of the world can do at least that well with a bit of effort.

Encouraging late first children would go a long way toward the reduction we need, too.

But reducing the consumption of the wealthiest global 20%, and redistributing some of that to the poorest, would be among the highest priorities.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 16:07:18

Pstarr,

Do you ever wonder why you draw anger and derision from folks?

When you talk like that it makes all other posters here feel uncomfortable wth you. You set yourself as an outsider, as a target of derision. It's really more like setting yourself up to be a victim.

If you want to engage in meaningful discussions you need to improve your communications skills.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 16:11:35

Doh,

I know you know about the Global Footprint. The ecological budget has already been blown sky high.

Your funny. You are quick to point to all kinds of existential doom but then argue as though we had a leisurely pace towards salvation available.

Elsewhere you recognize there will be a drastic reduction in human population.

What I hear you struggling with is the disconnect between the world you desperately want and the world we have. I get that. It's a struggle I have as well. I just keep running out of answers.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 24 Jul 2017, 22:49:40

Yes, it's a struggle.

But it's also just complicated.

And people tend to think if you aren't either on the side of immediate, total and utter destruction on the one side, or hunky-dory everything's gonna be just great on the other, you are involved in some kind of contradiction or denial.

Lots of really bad things are now locked in. But we could, probably/perhaps, avoid even worse outcomes with rapid reductions in resource use by the richest. You can also buy a lot of cooperation from the rest of the world with small improvements that don't really take terribly large numbers of resources, and that may ease a transition into a population de-growth.

But none of that is going to save us now from a bunch of really, really bad consequences, as far as I can see.

My motto these days is: Yes, we can do something. We can make a really, really bad situation even much much worse. And that is mostly what we are doing (especially now with current US leadership).

That also means that we could stop (or at least reduce the amount) that we are making things a whole lot worse than the catastrophes that are already baked in.

But that's a more complicated message than most can or want to process.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 01:49:57

Newf, have you read The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff? It doesn't fix anything, but it shows you a way.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 06:53:18

Cid,

I haven't. But it's on my list, just never seem to get to it.

Doh,

I keep hearing that the truth is too much for people to comprehend. That may be. But we will never know unless we try. I'm a simple guy, I think just identifying and stating the truth is tough enough let alone sculpting it into acceptable drivel.

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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 08:33:35

Newf, I think even more difficult than simplicity is trying to live with uncertainty.

Oh, we can now be completely certain that really, really bad things are in the pipeline. But the Guy McPherson folks can't seem to live with the uncertainty that humans might survive, and most everyone else can't live with the uncertainty that humans might not survive.

Just my take on things this cool and breezy morning.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 12:48:41

dohboi wrote:Newf, I think even more difficult than simplicity is trying to live with uncertainty.


Living with simplicity is actually living with uncertainty where you do not hold expectations. This has been the historical norm actually. The current status quo that we can control everything is actually the source of a lot of anxiety.

Just my two cents on this breezy morning!
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 13:20:39

Thanks, Ibon.

I actually meant to say "complexity" rather than "simplicity" in that sentence. Of course, anything along the complexity-simplicity continuum can pose difficulties for different people in different way.

A certain kind of simplicity can indeed be hard for some people to live with and accept...I'm thinking of the Shakers' sort of simple...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1RcBkmtIME
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Sperm count drop 'may lead to human extinction'

Unread postby dolanbaker » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 15:07:53

I don't know whether this has already been posted, but here goes.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40719743
Humans could become extinct if sperm counts in men from North America, Europe and Australia continue to fall at current rates, a doctor has warned.

Researchers assessing the results of nearly 200 separate studies say sperm counts among men from these areas seem to have halved in less than 40 years.

Some experts are sceptical of the findings, in Human Reproduction Update.

But lead researcher Dr Hagai Levine said he was "very worried" about what might happen in the future.

The assessment brings together the results of 185 studies between 1973 and 2011, one of the largest ever undertaken.

....

Dr Levine, from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, found a 52.4% decline in sperm concentration, and a 59.3% decline in total sperm count in men from North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

The study also indicates the rate of decline among men living in these countries is continuing and possibly even increasing.

....



In contrast, no significant decline was seen in South America, Asia and Africa, but the researchers point out that far fewer studies have been conducted on these continents.




The last paragraph above, highlights a different story, it appears only to be "western" men who are suffering such a drop in fertility. So it could only be the westerners who become extinct!
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 16:38:05

Could we wait a couple of years before we make humans extinct? I've paid into social security all my life and I want to collect at least one check. Ok thanks.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 17:26:17

Cog wrote:Could we wait a couple of years before we make humans extinct? I've paid into social security all my life and I want to collect at least one check. Ok thanks.


Thats the problem with social security.

You get cancer and die or you get hit by a truck or humanity goes extinct, and you don't get a dime from all those taxes you paid for the last 45 years.

If instead of paying all those SS taxes you'd been putting the money into a PRIVATE retirement account then your descendants could inherit it after humanity went extinct...if they also weren't extinct that is.

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Prof. Guy McPherson says we've only got a 10 year window to collect social security--then we'll go EXTINCT~~!!!

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Re: Sperm count drop 'may lead to human extinction'

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 25 Jul 2017, 23:51:54

dolanbaker wrote:I don't know whether this has already been posted, but here goes.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40719743
Humans could become extinct if sperm counts in men from North America, Europe and Australia continue to fall at current rates, a doctor has warned.

Researchers assessing the results of nearly 200 separate studies say sperm counts among men from these areas seem to have halved in less than 40 years.

But lead researcher Dr Hagai Levine said he was "very worried" about what might happen in the future.

The assessment brings together the results of 185 studies between 1973 and 2011, one of the largest ever undertaken.

....
Dr Levine, from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, found a 52.4% decline in sperm concentration, and a 59.3% decline in total sperm count in men from North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

The study also indicates the rate of decline among men living in these countries is continuing and possibly even increasing.

....
In contrast, no significant decline was seen in South America, Asia and Africa, but the researchers point out that far fewer studies have been conducted on these continents.


The last paragraph above, highlights a different story, it appears only to be "western" men who are suffering such a drop in fertility. So it could only be the westerners who become extinct!



Chemicals in plastics alter the brains of baby boys, making them "more feminine", say US researchers.

Males exposed to high doses in the womb went on to be less likely to play with boys' toys like cars or to join in rough and tumble games, they found.

The University of Rochester team's latest work adds to concerns about the safety of phthalates, found in vinyl flooring and PVC shower curtains.

The findings are reported in the International Journal of Andrology.

The same researchers have already shown that this can mean boys are born with genital abnormalities.

Now they say certain phthalates also impact on the developing brain, by knocking out the action of the male hormone testosterone.

They found that two phthalates DEHP and DBP can affect play behaviour.

Boys exposed to high levels of these in the womb were less likely than other boys to play with cars, trains and guns or engage in "rougher" games like playfighting.

"We now know that phthalates, to which we are all constantly exposed, are extremely worrying from a health perspective, leading to disruption of male reproduction health and, it appears, male behaviour too.

"This feminising capacity of phthalates makes them true 'gender benders'."

link

Gay men may be born that way, but our failure to adequately regulate the chemical industry over the last 70 years may in part be responsible.

The fact that it is not being seen where there is little or no chemical industry could lend credence to that.
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The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 00:16:25

The Tao of Pooh is available free on youtube as an audiobook:

https://youtu.be/_ufLm4SO9L8?t=34s
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Re: The Extinction Of Humanity pt. 3

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 27 Jul 2017, 02:36:19

It just came out that the military is spending 42 million on Viagra and another 84 million on erectile dysfunction medication.

Shouldn't this be a red flag, since most in the military are in their 20s. Even lifers are usually out by 40.

So if that's the case, it seems that we have a national problem that is not being recognized. Or perhaps hidden.

I'm in my 70s and have no problem so why should men in their 20s be needing assistance?
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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