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THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: 403 Forbidden

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 28 May 2015, 10:16:08

What advantage/profit accrues to the 'corn lobby' by not selling fuel-corn? That makes no sense.

Ethanol is produced from corn as always . . . fermented by yeasts in tanks with water. There is not other way. The rest (1st, 2nd, nth gen claims to the contrary) are merely investor dog and pony shows. This will never change and the ethanol alternative is a heartless, fruitless search to continue the suburban/autocentric model forever.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 28 May 2015, 10:42:50

Pete the USA is not the whole world by any broad stretch of your Californian imagination. Ethanol is not only produced from many much more sensible feed stocks than Corn in other countries, the Renewable Fuel Standard calls for over half of all Bio-Ethanol in the USA to be made from 'cellulosic' sources instead of corn seed.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 28 May 2015, 10:59:07

Tanada wrote:Pete the USA is not the whole world by any broad stretch of your Californian imagination. Ethanol is not only produced from many much more sensible feed stocks than Corn in other countries, the Renewable Fuel Standard calls for over half of all Bio-Ethanol in the USA to be made from 'cellulosic' sources instead of corn seed.
Cellulosic continues to be a diversion. All the schemes depend on the invention of genetically modified super-organism that will magically expel a super-enzyme to break apart the lignin glue and long-chain cellulose molecules . . . at no or little energy cost. Don't you think the paper industry would be interested? The liquor industry?

What did the ethanol-fuel industry never exist until Bush offered subsidies to his buddies in the corn industry. Is the American farmer a complete idiot that he would buy diesel from the Arabs when he could plant his own energy-source in the ground? In his back 40? That is insulting to the American farmer.

As for Brazil and their sugar-cane business: it is subsidized also and depends on very poor people to gather and process the burned off cane. The burned dryed leaves have razor sharp edges and must be manually cut from the cane. It is a quite inhuman.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Lore » Thu 28 May 2015, 11:14:19

Yeah, what ever happened to switchgrass?
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 28 May 2015, 13:43:59

Lore wrote:Yeah, what ever happened to switchgrass?


http://poet.com/cellulosic

They use Corn Stover instead of Switchgrass, which is actually sensible as the corn leaves/husks/stalks are already being grown to produce the corn seed anyhow.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 28 May 2015, 14:53:36

wiki wrote:Cellulosic ethanol commercialization is the process of building an industry out of methods of turning cellulose-containing organic matter into fuel. Companies such as Iogen, POET, and Abengoa are building refineries that can process biomass and turn it into ethanol, while companies such as DuPont, Diversa, Novozymes, and Dyadic are producing enzymes which could enable a cellulosic ethanol future. The shift from food crop feedstocks to waste residues and native grasses offers significant opportunities for a range of players, from farmers to biotechnology firms, and from project developers to investors.[91]

I doubt any of these companies exists anymore or is involved in the production of cellulose fuel. The damn scam tanked (pun intended) years ago.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 28 May 2015, 21:04:17

pstarr wrote:
wiki wrote:Cellulosic ethanol commercialization is the process of building an industry out of methods of turning cellulose-containing organic matter into fuel. Companies such as Iogen, POET, and Abengoa are building refineries that can process biomass and turn it into ethanol, while companies such as DuPont, Diversa, Novozymes, and Dyadic are producing enzymes which could enable a cellulosic ethanol future. The shift from food crop feedstocks to waste residues and native grasses offers significant opportunities for a range of players, from farmers to biotechnology firms, and from project developers to investors.[91]

I doubt any of these companies exists anymore or is involved in the production of cellulose fuel. The damn scam tanked (pun intended) years ago.


Pete pete pete...If you had bothered to click on the link I included above and actually exercised third grade reading comprehension you would have discovered that the POET facility in Iowa opened for business in September 2014 and s happily making and selling cellulosic ethanol today. After 11 years of decrying ethanol without looking at any new information you have allowed yourself to become badly out of date on your theories.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 28 May 2015, 22:17:08

Tanada I would expect more from the site admin . . . instead of insults. I don't believe you even read your own posted link. The company's business is fermented corn ethanol. The same stuff you must have been drinking when you insulted me. Nothing to do with cellulosic alcohol. Do you know the difference?

The cellulosic business is still still-borne. Dead in the water. Or should I say, dead in its own waste products. :lol:

wiki wrote:In 2007, the company received a US$80 million grant from the U.S. Department of Energy for the creation of a cellulosic ethanol production facility in Emmetsburg, Iowa. This facility is currently under construction and is expected to begin full operations in 2014. It is expected to produce 25 million gallons of ethanol per year from corncobs, leaves and husks provided by farmers in and around the area.[4]

Nothing has come of this. If you read the link you posted you would know that.
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Re: 403 Forbidden

Unread postby davep » Fri 29 May 2015, 03:02:35

pstarr wrote:What advantage/profit accrues to the 'corn lobby' by not selling fuel-corn? That makes no sense.

Ethanol is produced from corn as always . . . fermented by yeasts in tanks with water. There is not other way. The rest (1st, 2nd, nth gen claims to the contrary) are merely investor dog and pony shows. This will never change and the ethanol alternative is a heartless, fruitless search to continue the suburban/autocentric model forever.


In Europe we tend to use sugar beet, which is less nutrient-hungry and more efficient.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Scrub Puller » Fri 29 May 2015, 04:07:17

Yair . . .
pstarr. Suggest you do a bit of research mate, you're talking bullshit.

Brazil has a highly mechanised cane industry using Australian technology from my local town.

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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 29 May 2015, 06:37:26

pstarr wrote:Tanada I would expect more from the site admin . . . instead of insults. I don't believe you even read your own posted link. The company's business is fermented corn ethanol. The same stuff you must have been drinking when you insulted me. Nothing to do with cellulosic alcohol. Do you know the difference?

The cellulosic business is still still-borne. Dead in the water. Or should I say, dead in its own waste products. :lol:

wiki wrote:In 2007, the company received a US$80 million grant from the U.S. Department of Energy for the creation of a cellulosic ethanol production facility in Emmetsburg, Iowa. This facility is currently under construction and is expected to begin full operations in 2014. It is expected to produce 25 million gallons of ethanol per year from corncobs, leaves and husks provided by farmers in and around the area.[4]

Nothing has come of this. If you read the link you posted you would know that.



From the link I posted.
Cellulose, which provides the cellular structure for all plants, is the world's most abundant organic compound. POET has been researching and developing cellulosic ethanol technology since 2001, when we began performing bench-scale testing of our cellulosic technology at our research laboratory. In 2008, we began producing cellulosic ethanol at pilot scale at our research center. In partnership with Royal DSM of the Netherlands, POET-DSM Advanced Biofuels opened a commercial-scale ethanol plant in Emmetsburg, Iowa – dubbed “Project LIBERTY” – in September of 2014. Project LIBERTY’s feedstock is corn crop residue – cobs, leaves, husk and some stalk.


Pretending something does not exist does not make it cease to exist.

http://poetdsm.com/pr/first-commercial- ... osic-plant
EMMETSBURG, IOWA (September 3, 2014) – POET-DSM Advanced Biofuels, LLC, a joint venture of Royal DSM and POET, LLC, today proved its revolutionary technology that converts agricultural residue into renewable fuel at the Grand Opening of its first commercial cellulosic ethanol plant in Emmetsburg, Iowa.

The plant, named “Project LIBERTY,” was formally opened in the presence of His Majesty Willem-Alexander, King of the Netherlands, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack, Deputy Under Secretary Michael Knotek of the Department of Energy, Governor Terry Branstad and Lieutenant Governor Kim Reynolds of Iowa, other dignitaries and thousands of guests.

Project LIBERTY converts baled corn cobs, leaves, husk and stalk into renewable fuel. The plant has now officially started up, processing its first batch of biomass into cellulosic ethanol and is moving forward toward continuous operation. At full capacity, it will convert 770 tons of biomass per day to produce ethanol at a rate of 20 million gallons per year, later ramping up to 25 million gallons per year.

“Some have called cellulosic ethanol a ‘fantasy fuel,’ but today it becomes a reality,” said Jeff Broin, POET Founder and Executive Chairman. “With access now to new sources for energy, Project LIBERTY can be the first step in transforming our economy, our environment and our national security.”


Maybe from California you can't see it, but 20 million gallons per year is a sound commercial scale start in the Midwest. If a woman had conceived on the day this plant opened she would be delivering a baby now,. Just like that baby the Cellulosic Ethanol industry is going to keep growing in the USA because it uses waste material as feedstock.

Predicting the future is not easy and I could be wrong on the timing, but proclaiming a proven technology does not exist is no more of an argument than saying the Earth is Flat because you never personally traveled all the way around the globe.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 29 May 2015, 09:38:25

I don't know if this has been linked but it is a study that says the same thing some of us have been saying all along, there is no crop "waste" to be used.

--
As well, I think the reason the POET process is viable is that a good portion of the "residues" it uses are leftovers from milling corn, in addition to some gratuitous corn stalks. In milling corn, the "skin" of the kernel is removed to get at the starch, from which the foods in the soft drink food group are made.

The reason POET has good results with their "cellulosic" process is that a good amount of corn starch remains on the skin of the kernels after milling, around 18% residual starch.[p75] They say they are converting cellulose into sugar and fermenting it, but a good part of what they are fermenting is the sugar that arrives on a truck, no different than a regular ethanol plant.

Which isn't in itself terrible in the overall scheme, that residue goes into the regular ethanol process anyway I'd guess. But likely it is the thing that enables this company to be successful where other cellulosic processes have failed and I'm sure that has benefits when it comes to talking to the government. After all .gov set a cellulosic minimum and looks to have egg on it's face since cellulosic has otherwise been a fantasy, so everyone looks good if call their process cellulosic.

That is what I get anyway.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 29 May 2015, 10:14:41

Pops wrote:I don't know if this has been linked but it is a study that says the same thing some of us have been saying all along, there is no crop "waste" to be used.

--
As well, I think the reason the POET process is viable is that a good portion of the "residues" it uses are leftovers from milling corn, in addition to some gratuitous corn stalks. In milling corn, the "skin" of the kernel is removed to get at the starch, from which the foods in the soft drink food group are made.

The reason POET has good results with their "cellulosic" process is that a good amount of corn starch remains on the skin of the kernels after milling, around 18% residual starch.[p75] They say they are converting cellulose into sugar and fermenting it, but a good part of what they are fermenting is the sugar that arrives on a truck, no different than a regular ethanol plant.

Which isn't in itself terrible in the overall scheme, that residue goes into the regular ethanol process anyway I'd guess. But likely it is the thing that enables this company to be successful where other cellulosic processes have failed and I'm sure that has benefits when it comes to talking to the government. After all .gov set a cellulosic minimum and looks to have egg on it's face since cellulosic has otherwise been a fantasy, so everyone looks good if call their process cellulosic.

That is what I get anyway.


I dunno Pops, around here the corn fields have so much residue left behind the farmers my area have started bailing about half the stover off each fall to clear the fields for planting the next crop. The farms around Ohio and Michigan have gone to using a very dense plant spacing for field corn. They have raised up the cutter bar on the combines so the residual stalk is closer to 24" than the old 8" stalk they used to leave. The taller stalk remnants remain in the fields as residue after they bale the upper stalk remnants and haul them off.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 29 May 2015, 10:55:07

Tanada wrote:Pretending something does not exist does not make it cease to exist.

I never said cellulosic doesn't exist.
The French chemist, Henri Braconnot, was the first to discover that cellulose could be hydrolyzed into sugars by treatment with sulfuric acid in 1819. The hydrolyzed sugar could then be processed to form ethanol through fermentation. The first commercialized ethanol production began in Germany in 1898, where acid was used to hydrolyze cellulose.

So it is a simple process that has not changed in almost 200 years. Problem is; it is a very energy-intensive process that will always cost more than petroleum. Always. Like duh. :razz:
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 29 May 2015, 11:07:11

Not sure what part you dunno sub,
The removing stover increases co2 emissions pArt or the POET process is kind of a scam part.
No doubt people bale and use stover.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 29 May 2015, 11:17:44

Pops wrote:Not sure what part you dunno sub,
The removing stover increases co2 emissions pArt or the POET process is kind of a scam part.
No doubt people bale and use stover.


The POET being a scam is a difference of opinion, I understand that just fine lol. If you agreed with everything I believed one of us would be a different person from who we are.

It's the Stover causing increased CO2 part I have a problem with, around here they already remove it. How does removing it for ethanol production vs other reasons cause greater CO2 emissions? It gets removed mechanically in both cases using fossil fueled equipment. No matter if it is used for ethanol or animals it gets digested into CO2 and/or burned into CO2.

In fact in some of the versions of the process I have read the left over residue from the stover digester part of the plant is proposed to be mixed with the WDG from the regular ethanol plant to add fiber and mass to the distillers grain feed. That would make it just more cud for the cattle/sheep or slops for the hogs.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 29 May 2015, 11:36:20

Subjectivist wrote:It's the Stover causing increased CO2 part I have a problem with, around here they already remove it. How does removing it for ethanol production vs other reasons cause greater CO2 emissions?

You're right, it doesn't matter how it is used, it is the using rather than the leaving that is the point.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 30 May 2015, 09:47:11

Love it or hate it, it looks like the EPA is getting behind the E-15 standard after all.

http://peakoil.com/alternative-energy/u ... on-ethanol

The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) plans to inject $100 million in funding to get more ethanol at the gas pump, according to two industry sources, the latest push to get beyond a “blend wall” that has capped demand for the biofuel.

That would mark a big push for an overhaul of fuel-blending pumps and related infrastructure to generate higher demand for the biofuel. The USDA is expected to announce the funding on Friday, the sources said.

A USDA spokesman declined to comment on the plans.

Ethanol groups have asked the USDA to continue to offer this funding amid rising calls for policy reform from policymakers, oil companies, and environmentalists. The USDA launched a program in 2011 designed to get 10,000 flex-fuel options at gas pumps nationwide that would allow use of blends as high as E85, which is 85 percent ethanol.

The United States sets use requirements for biofuels, including ethanol, through the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program, but has delayed setting targets for the current year and 2014 amid concern from oil companies that ethanol use has hit a saturation point without major infrastructure changes.

The plans come as oil companies and biofuels producers await a proposal from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) on biofuels use requirements for 2014, 2015, and 2016, widely expected to be announced on Friday.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 30 May 2015, 10:22:36

Tanada, your post? Did somebody really suggest throwing another $100 million of taxpayer money at the ethanol boondoggle? It's crazy! (Those guys must be drunk. :razz: )

The opposite actually occurred yesterday. It seems some common sense has entered into this debate: Agency scales back biofuels quotas far below requirements of 2007 law.

WSJ wrote:"the EPA proposed Friday (May 29) to ease annual requirements for ethanol in gasoline, citing market restraints and other challenges that are preventing the Obama administration from meeting the goals laid out in a 2007 law."
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 30 May 2015, 18:58:58

pstarr wrote:Tanada, your post? Did somebody really suggest throwing another $100 million of taxpayer money at the ethanol boondoggle? It's crazy! (Those guys must be drunk. :razz: )

The opposite actually occurred yesterday. It seems some common sense has entered into this debate: Agency scales back biofuels quotas far below requirements of 2007 law.

WSJ wrote:"the EPA proposed Friday (May 29) to ease annual requirements for ethanol in gasoline, citing market restraints and other challenges that are preventing the Obama administration from meeting the goals laid out in a 2007 law."


It is the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. EPA is suggesting a scale back while USDA is spending a hundred million on promoting blender pumps all over the country to handle E-15 and up.

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/news/entry/rf ... structure/

WASHINGTON — Today, the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) announced $100 million worth of funding for new blender pump installations throughout the country. Bob Dinneen, president and CEO of the Renewable Fuels Association, released the following statement praising the USDA for its investment:

“The U.S. Department of Agriculture’s (USDA) announcement today of a significant investment in blender pumps stands in stark contrast to the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) earlier decision that thwarts private sector investment in infrastructure. Clearly, Secretary Vilsack and USDA understand what is necessary to move this country’s renewable energy industry forward. Consumers across this country are applauding USDA today for its efforts to encourage a choice of high-octane, low-cost, domestically produced fuel at the pump. EPA should pay close heed.”
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