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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 10 May 2018, 13:20:36

The NTSB now has FOUR separate safety investigation of Tesla vehicle crashes going on.

u-s-safety-investigators-examine-another-fatal-tesla-crash-

Three of the four investigations involves fires and fire safety caused by the Li-ion batteries in the Teslas, which can explode or cause very intense fires after crashes. Amazingly, the Tesla Li-ion battery that burst into flames in the Mountain View accident even spontaneously burst into flames again days after the accident.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Revi » Thu 10 May 2018, 13:26:26

Lithium ion batteries are dangerous. We have a simple electric car that uses lead-acid gel batteries and it seems fine.
I am going to drive it around this afternoon! It goes about 34 mph downhill with a tailwind, but it's fine for getting around town and doing important things. ( like getting ice cream).

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 10 May 2018, 14:00:34

Plantagenet wrote:Amazingly, the Tesla Li-ion battery that burst into flames in the Mountain View accident even spontaneously burst into flames again days after the accident.
Cheers!

If we're going to rely on the rare anecdote, I wasn't happy 15 years ago when my neighbor told me the car parked next to me was on fire (and it was a pretty nasty looking fire). I managed to quickly move my car away before the fire department arrived and proceeded to destroy her car putting out the fire before the car exploded.

The owner claimed she'd just had the fuel line repaired.

...

OTOH, perhaps better procedures to check out LI batteries in Teslas following certain types of accidents should be a procedure. That's what safety investigations are for -- to better understand the nature of risks, and what procedures or standards should be required to mitigate those risks.

If the NHTSA makes a statement that Tesla batteries or LI car batteries generally need additional safety equipment, or all need to be heavily modified, or can't be used at all due to their severe fire risk, that will be material news.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 10 May 2018, 14:13:07

Revi wrote:Lithium ion batteries are dangerous. We have a simple electric car that uses lead-acid gel batteries and it seems fine.

Gasoline is very dangerous. It's all about context. Overall statistics matter and safety standards matter.

Given all the problems there have been over time with exploding cell phones, burning laptops, etc. and given the size of BEV cars' LI battery packs in total, it's little wonder there is a serious fire after the occasional horrific crash with a BEV.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 10 May 2018, 15:30:42

Outcast_Searcher wrote:If the NHTSA makes a statement that Tesla batteries or LI car batteries generally need additional safety equipment, or all need to be heavily modified, or can't be used at all due to their severe fire risk, that will be material news.


Theres no indication such wild speculation is warranted at this time. :)

So far all that has happened is that the NTSB has opened a fourth safety investigation after the Tesla crash in Florida a couple of days ago. Several of the NTSB investigations involve the TESLA battery and the fire issue, but the possible AUTOPILOT failure in Mountain View is also of concern in the third investigation, and another purported AUTOPILOT failure in an earlier crash is within the purview of an earlier NTSB investigation as well.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 10 May 2018, 16:12:27

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:If the NHTSA makes a statement that Tesla batteries or LI car batteries generally need additional safety equipment, or all need to be heavily modified, or can't be used at all due to their severe fire risk, that will be material news.


Theres no indication such wild speculation is warranted at this time. :)

So far all that has happened is that the NTSB has opened a fourth safety investigation after the Tesla crash in Florida a couple of days ago. Several of the NTSB investigations involve the TESLA battery and the fire issue, but the possible AUTOPILOT failure in Mountain View is also of concern in the third investigation, and another purported AUTOPILOT failure in an earlier crash is within the purview of an earlier NTSB investigation as well.

Cheers!

Um, you're the one reporting on a single anecdotal incident of a previously damaged battery from a very bad crash like it's meaningful. But of course, THAT's not speculation, much less wild speculation. :roll:

OK there, sparky.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 10 May 2018, 17:36:50

So you are a fireman, an EMT called to an EV wreck on the highway. The automobile is mangled, an occupant inside is injured and apparently loosing much blood. You have determined (from a safe distance) that the EV's 85 KWH battery is damaged, the metal positive and negative poles both are stripped clean of insulation and protection. You can also see the two bare metal/live battery terminals rubbing up against other metal body parts. What do you do?

Do you dare touch the metal framework and risk instant electrocution? Does the injured occupant live? Are you a hero or just another sideliner?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 10 May 2018, 18:28:09

Outcast_Searcher wrote: anecdotal ...


Again, you are misusing the word anecdotal. You are doing this over and over. You clearly don't know what the word anecdotal means. :lol:

You said that you looked up the definition after I pointed out to you that you were misusing this word, but apparently you didn't understand the definition you read.

Lets go through it together, shall we? I'm happy to help you learn something about our wonderful shared language.

an·ec·do·tal
ˌanəkˈdōdl/
adjective
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
"while there was much anecdotal evidence there was little hard fact"

You keep referring to the TESLA car crashes and the subsequent battery fires as "anecdotal." In another post you referred to the NHTSA and NTSB investigations of these crashes as involving "anecdotal data." Trust me---when the federal safety agencies do their investigations of TESLA safety they are not generating "anecdotal data." The whole idea of "anecdotal data" is just nonsensical. Its as though you think the word anecdotal is a broad pejorative term, rather then having a specific meaning.

The word "anecdotal" has a very specific meaning. It means something that one person tells another person for which there is absolutely no evidence. For instance, if Bob tells Sally there has been a car crash on the next street then that is an ANECDOTAL account. However, if Sally then sees photographs or TV coverage or a news report about the crash then her knowledge about the crash is no longer anecdotal because she has read now the news report, seen the news photos, and watched TV coverage of the accident. If she googles or visits the NTSB web site to learn more details about the accident, then what she learns is not "anecdotal data"----its just data.

Get it now?

--------------------------------------

There's no need for you to feel embarrassed because you've been misusing the this word all this time, and its absolutely OK if you don't know what certain words mean----many people have a limited vocabulary or just can't remember what every word means all the time. However, now that I've told you several times that you are misusing this common word, and then defined it for you, and then expanded on the definition with an easy-to-understand example, I hope you will use the word "anecdotal" correctly in the future.

And I really hope you will never refer to "anecdotal data" again. I laughed so hard. :lol:

As usual, I'm always glad to help.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 10 May 2018, 18:51:28

Are we willing to grant the objection of a unwilling participant in this discussion?

To wit; certain nomenclature ie 'autopilot', 'AI', 'artificial intelligence' etc. when applied to roadway painted-line and object-distance tracking sensors is more than a trivial oversight.

It's not even harmless sales hype. It's a dangerous marketing ploy that should be reigned in by FCC, NTSB and the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 11 May 2018, 07:57:48

Yep. Let's just stick with gas cars. They're just so much safer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKQ-U-rnLdo
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 May 2018, 08:43:38

pstarr wrote:So you are a fireman, an EMT called to an EV wreck on the highway. The automobile is mangled, an occupant inside is injured and apparently loosing much blood. You have determined (from a safe distance) that the EV's 85 KWH battery is damaged, the metal positive and negative poles both are stripped clean of insulation and protection. You can also see the two bare metal/live battery terminals rubbing up against other metal body parts. What do you do?

Do you dare touch the metal framework and risk instant electrocution? Does the injured occupant live? Are you a hero or just another sideliner?


Risk of electrocution is very remote to nonexistent.

For the Tesla Model S:

7104 cells.
Panasonic 3400 mAh at 3.6V. capacity of 7104 * 3400 * 3.6 = 86.95 kWh.
The cells are arranged in 96 groups of 74 cells each.
The 74 cells in a group (also called a "brick" in the Roadster are wired in parallel so that the batteries are balanced amongst themselves. Each group as one large approximately 4.1V cell with a current capacity of approximately 230A.
The 96 groups are connected in series, rendering a pack output of 403v at 230Ah.


Each of the cells is individually fused, as are the groups (bricks), and the whole pack. Any short to ground (including the car's frame) will pop the fuses.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 11 May 2018, 10:08:34

Ghung, lots of folks, lots of experts cited in lots of published articles disagree with you. 403 volts at 230 AH is scary to anyone with a brain in their head, especially one whose brain isn't already sending out wisps of smoke lol

Regardless (and rightly or wrongly) here's a story about the exact scenario. Dutch fire fighters waited an hour to enter a Tesla.
http://fortune.com/2016/09/07/tesla-cra ... trocution/
By REUTERS September 7, 2016
A Dutchman died on Wednesday after his Tesla (TSLA, -0.19%) collided with a tree, according to local authorities, and it took firefighters hours to remove his body from the vehicle due to fears they could be electrocuted.

They were rightfully scared
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 May 2018, 11:26:29

pstarr wrote:Ghung, lots of folks, lots of experts cited in lots of published articles disagree with you. 403 volts at 230 AH is scary to anyone with a brain in their head, especially one whose brain isn't already sending out wisps of smoke lol

Regardless (and rightly or wrongly) here's a story about the exact scenario. Dutch fire fighters waited an hour to enter a Tesla.
http://fortune.com/2016/09/07/tesla-cra ... trocution/
By REUTERS September 7, 2016
A Dutchman died on Wednesday after his Tesla (TSLA, -0.19%) collided with a tree, according to local authorities, and it took firefighters hours to remove his body from the vehicle due to fears they could be electrocuted.

They were rightfully scared


Fine with me if you display your lack of knowledge about electricity and batteries. Again, every 18650 cell in a Tesla battery is individually fused. Any short in the system will cause those cells to be isolated. How can someone suffer electrocution from 3.7 volt battery cells that are isolated? Please describe in detail the process by which that could occur.

The only scenario I can think of that would result in electrocution would be if the battery pack was intact and someone touched the primary (400+ volt) terminals which are well protected and deep inside the floor of the car..

BTW: At this moment I am disassembling 18650 Li-Ion battery packs I savaged from the recycle bin at the big box store. I will inspect and test each cell individually for capacity and internal resistance. I use these in my projects and hope to build my own solar battery for the house. I've studied these batteries a great deal, from the battery packs in power tools to Tesla batteries, including their configurations and charging parameters along with the circuitry used. Do you know all of the specs of a Samsung INR18650-20Q? I do. What about the Panasonic cells Tesla uses? Should cells in series, or parallel, be fused? Why? Do you know what an LM3420 is?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 11 May 2018, 11:32:31

Ghung wrote: "The only scenario I can think of that would result in electrocution would be if the battery pack was intact and someone touched the primary (400+ volt) terminals which are well protected and deep inside the floor of the car.."


That is precisely the scenerio the firemen were confronted with. The scenerio I laid out in my post.

-- mangled car,
--exposed terminals in contact with metal frame of vehicle

you need to concentrate and follow along before you randomly insult people who may, just may, understand what you pretend to understand.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Cog » Fri 11 May 2018, 11:50:12

pstarr, Long before the fireman arrived terminals on a Tesla battery that were in contact with the metal frame would have caused the battery to explode or catch on fire. This is not really an issue.

See below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cex_imP_XFs
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 May 2018, 11:58:24

pstarr wrote:
Ghung wrote: "The only scenario I can think of that would result in electrocution would be if the battery pack was intact and someone touched the primary (400+ volt) terminals which are well protected and deep inside the floor of the car.."


That is precisely the scenerio the firemen were confronted with. The scenerio I laid out in my post.

-- mangled car,
--exposed terminals in contact with metal frame of vehicle

you need to concentrate and follow along before you randomly insult people who may, just may, understand what you pretend to understand.


......exposed terminals in contact with metal frame of vehicle??? That would be a short absolutely resulting in blown fuses = cells are isolated = no danger from electrocution. JEEEEZ! You seem to be having one of your more obtuse days..... Or, again, you can describe under what scenario a shorted, fused, battery does not blow its fuses.

Here's a picture of the cell level fusing in a Tesla battery. See the little wires? Those are fuse wires connecting each individual 3.7 volt, 3600mAh cell to the buss bar. ANY short will cause them to blow, at the cell level:

Image

These fuses also prevent fires from cells in parallel which short out internally (becoming defacto resistors) and pull power from other cells in the parallel pack, overheating and catching fire. This is one reason cheap Li-Ion battery packs catch fire. No cell level fusing.

A picture of a Tesla battery's main pack buss fuse:

Image

Here it is inside the battery pack, before the main external terminals exit the pack:

Image
Last edited by GHung on Fri 11 May 2018, 12:09:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 11 May 2018, 12:07:45

And if only one terminal is in contact. And the other is close?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 May 2018, 12:23:08

pstarr wrote:And if only one terminal is in contact. And the other is close?


Then it's highly likely that the battery pack is damaged and cells are ruptured = spectacular fire. Electrocution risk becomes moot.

Image

Oh,,, wait! That's gasoline?..... Diesel?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 11 May 2018, 12:29:20

"highly likely" the battery is already damaged? Or is it "kinda" likely? Or maybe pretty likely? Maybe the battery is not already damaged but the terminals are? My scenerio exactly

Maybe the first responder says him/herselves:

"Holy Jeez! One bare contact touching the frame. The other bare contact next to a loose car door, which is swinging in the breeze. I better call Ghung to deal with this!"
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 11 May 2018, 12:33:13

gasoline/diesel smells. If there is no fire currently. And there are no sparks anywhere, then the first responder is pretty confident they can proceed to extricate the poor injured person inside the vehicle.
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