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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 10:50:43

Cobalt and Lithium are not the long term solutions, and economy of scale with present
technology cells will run up on cobalt limits perhaps before lithium limits. Right now the
recycling process of cells is to get the cobalt back out, the lithium is degraded to where
it is more expensive to reclaim than it is to use new lithium stock. Interestingly, Soviet occupation
era studies of Afghanistan drove American surveys of Afghan mineral wealth and were gobsmacked by the results: huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium. A lithium
deposit that could be Bolivia size or larger.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 11:22:43

efarmer wrote:Cobalt and Lithium are not the long term solutions


If there comes a time when holding onto the lithium in the recycling process makes sense, they will.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 105348.htm

The problem is the mentality of perfect being the enemy of good, where some magic tech is always just a few years away, so you never launch. I remember when the battery fires in laptops (which still happens, see the Samgung Galaxy 7 debaucle) caused people to completely disregard lithium cobalt for vehicle applications. Tesla responded with an aggressive climate-controlled BMS in the roadster whereas other wannabes like Phoenix motorcars placed their faith in "safe" lithium chemistries which turned out to be too expensive and niche.

There is no "perfection" in technology, only the constant forward shift of what constitutes current tech. You'll always have your bleeding edge on one end and your commodity level on the other but what lies there keeps shifting as technology improves.

The crustal abundance of lithium is much higher than what is represented in the active lithium mining operations. It's just that there hasn't been enough of a market to justify exploiting lithium in all the places it exists across the globe (including the US). That is going to change in a big way, so it is best not to look at lithium mining hotspots as being a choke-point.

Moral of the story is that the invisible hand of the market has not been played out yet. A global shift to electrification and batteries will transform mining and manufacturing and utilities in a big way.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby baha » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 12:48:51

I have said before I am not an early adopter. There is a dilemma when tech is developing this fast. And since the lifetime of these systems could be 20 years, yours will be left behind fast.

My answer in the past has been, when the tech can do what I want and continue to do it for many years. I will buy in. My PV/Lithium battery system will be the latest design. One of the first inverters specifically designed for a Lithium battery pack and 400 vdc PV strings. I expect it to last 20 years. I will maintain it to last 20 years. Buy the time it is old and dead the new tech will be completely different and it will belong in a museum, like me :)

I console myself by getting what I paid for. 20 years of FF independence.

The EV is next...yes, dear...after the new roof and siding :(
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby baha » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 14:53:28

I don't like to say I told you so...but I told you so :)
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/16/the-pho ... tesla.html
That didn't take long.

These dudes will go over 1000 miles on a charge. In a BMW. I still think an old VW can do better.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 15:32:35

That's great baha! Not Elon's genius, but a rather combination of mature mostly off-the-shelf technologies: regenerative braking, sophisticated digital controller/sensors and lithium batteries.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 19:44:33

pstarr wrote:That's great baha! Not Elon's genius, but a rather combination of mature mostly off-the-shelf technologies: regenerative braking, sophisticated digital controller/sensors and lithium batteries.


So does this mean you will finally stop driving your liquid fuel burning abomination and join us environmentalists who EV? Finally?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 20:57:28

Adam
although I am a big fan of EV's and the addition of them to lighten the load on gas consumption my view is they still need considerable improvements to be something we all should embrace. Living in southern California...no problem, but if you live in the central northern US and Canada it becomes a problem for several reasons. Where I live we have great summers and beautiful autumns but the winters and springs are massively harsh with temperatures often reaching below -25 C for a few weeks on end. If there were recharge stations everywhere and folks had great access to cheap electricity in their homes/garages this might not be a problem given they could pre-charge their cars to warm them up enough such that the battery would last to get them home without turning the heater off. But then again most people in this part of the world are forced to park in unheated parkades or outside. At -30 C those EVs probably have some problems after 4 or 5 hours. And if there were a bunch of all wheel drive/4 wheel drive EV's that could give enough range under the absolute worst conditions to get back and forth from where you have to commute then great. Without the all wheel drive/huge number of charging stations It isn't there yet. I would love to see it. There are huge problems in all of this including the cost to the average consumer (why would I spend a bunch of more extra money on a vehicle that isn't going to be reliable and then be required to spend almost as much to replace the battery in 5 years). If there was something the government really wanted to make a difference on it would be in providing tax breaks to companies who are improving battery storage and access to recharge stations.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby baha » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 09:35:41

I've been thinking about this problem. How to heat an electric car?

I like to do things in the most efficient way. The best way to make heat is combustion. Back in the old days VW microbuses came with gasoline fired heaters. There was no way a 1500cc air cooled engine could make enough heat to fill that box so they improvised. There is guy in Castle Rock Colorado that repairs and rebuilds these old heaters.

They are incredibly dangerous but they really make some heat :)

Clearly the best use of FFs is to heat the car, not propel it down the road...

BTW - I am thinking my electric VW will have an LP gas heater. Or I will wear a jacket...this is NC :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 10:36:59

baha wrote:I've been thinking about this problem. How to heat an electric car?

I like to do things in the most efficient way. The best way to make heat is combustion. Back in the old days VW microbuses came with gasoline fired heaters. There was no way a 1500cc air cooled engine could make enough heat to fill that box so they improvised. There is guy in Castle Rock Colorado that repairs and rebuilds these old heaters.

They are incredibly dangerous but they really make some heat :)

Clearly the best use of FFs is to heat the car, not propel it down the road...

BTW - I am thinking my electric VW will have an LP gas heater. Or I will wear a jacket...this is NC :)


The only real need for heating in a vehicle cab is to keep the windows clear of fog or frost. Burning a petroleum product inside the cab will fog your windows pretty darn quick, I would recommend an external fire with a heat exchanger so you get the heat but not the water vapor.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 10:53:45

AdamB wrote:
pstarr wrote:That's great baha! Not Elon's genius, but a rather combination of mature mostly off-the-shelf technologies: regenerative braking, sophisticated digital controller/sensors and lithium batteries.


So does this mean you will finally stop driving your liquid fuel burning abomination and join us environmentalists who EV? Finally?

Tesla is more about cool and performance than about max efficiency, at least so far.

The GM's (Bolt) and Nissan's (Leaf) of the world are more about efficiency. I hope they can continue to drive the price down, considering how ho-hum the efficient EV's are.

The article you're referencing is talking about hyper-miling. It's great that this is theoretically possible, and hopefully this kind of thinking helps lead to 500 mile range EV's in time *i.e. big efficient battery, plus efficient car), but don't expect mainstream thousand mile EV's with real world driving any time soon.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 11:04:11

The only real need for heating in a vehicle cab is to keep the windows clear of fog or frost.


Obviously, you have never driven in a Canadian prairie winter. We get -30 C and sometimes -40 C. Without heat in the cab you are a human icicle.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 11:11:49

rockdoc123 wrote:Adam
although I am a big fan of EV's and the addition of them to lighten the load on gas consumption my view is they still need considerable improvements to be something we all should embrace. Living in southern California...no problem, but if you live in the central northern US and Canada it becomes a problem for several reasons. Where I live we have great summers and beautiful autumns but the winters and springs are massively harsh with temperatures often reaching below -25 C for a few weeks on end. If there were recharge stations everywhere and folks had great access to cheap electricity in their homes/garages this might not be a problem given they could pre-charge their cars to warm them up enough such that the battery would last to get them home without turning the heater off. But then again most people in this part of the world are forced to park in unheated parkades or outside. At -30 C those EVs probably have some problems after 4 or 5 hours. And if there were a bunch of all wheel drive/4 wheel drive EV's that could give enough range under the absolute worst conditions to get back and forth from where you have to commute then great. Without the all wheel drive/huge number of charging stations It isn't there yet. I would love to see it. There are huge problems in all of this including the cost to the average consumer (why would I spend a bunch of more extra money on a vehicle that isn't going to be reliable and then be required to spend almost as much to replace the battery in 5 years). If there was something the government really wanted to make a difference on it would be in providing tax breaks to companies who are improving battery storage and access to recharge stations.

There is no question that in cold environments the mileage drops significantly for EV's. But since in the real world, the vast majority of people can do just fine with 100ish mile a day commutes or less, it's not the end of the world. There's nothing credible I've seen about EV's having problems or not working in the cold. (I can't find any credible citations about any general real world problem with EV reliability for this. Can you?)

And the range losses I'm seeing from credible sources are in the 25% to 30% range. Significant, but not a game-over scenario for the vast majority of commuters, even today.

And with EV's already demonstrating 300 mile range, and very likely higher to come within a few years, and with the real world efficiency for bitter cold temperatures dropping much less than 50%, you're exaggerating the problem quite a bit. And let's not forget that charging stations get added as EV's get adopted.

No question, it's an issue at this point for extremely cold climates. No question they'd need to adapt, take some precautions, etc. just like they have with ICE cars for many years. Oil heaters, garages, cold weather kits, etc. are all examples of that.

Now, if I lived in such a place, would that slow adoption for me if I had a long commute every day until I was more sure of not having significant problems during as big cold spike? Sure.

Does that mean EV's are infeasible for those climates? I haven't seen anything to suggest that -- except where people have seriously long commutes or can't charge at or near where they work. And that's with today's still early adopter level of EV technology.

(I won't consider it mainstream until they're actually selling at least a few million EV's a year and they're working well, so it's early days yet).

http://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/e ... mperatures

https://energy.gov/eere/electricvehicle ... mperatures
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 11:50:16

rockdoc123 wrote:Adam
although I am a big fan of EV's and the addition of them to lighten the load on gas consumption my view is they still need considerable improvements to be something we all should embrace.


I agree with you that they won't be the solution for everyone. But they make us environmentalist types happy, knowing our personal transport isn't spewing CO2 every time he runs down to the corner store for a mass produced alcoholic beverage to carry to his hobby of spectating at forest clear cutting events.

But what is important to remember is that every mile the wife drives on EV is a mile of transport that isn't pouring CO2 into the atmosphere.

rocdoc123 wrote:Living in southern California...no problem, but if you live in the central northern US and Canada it becomes a problem for several reasons. Where I live we have great summers and beautiful autumns but the winters and springs are massively harsh with temperatures often reaching below -25 C for a few weeks on end. If there were recharge stations everywhere and folks had great access to cheap electricity in their homes/garages this might not be a problem given they could pre-charge their cars to warm them up enough such that the battery would last to get them home without turning the heater off. But then again most people in this part of the world are forced to park in unheated parkades or outside.


I completely agree that full use of an EV does require a garage, making them immediately not suited for all uses.

This would certainly effect the market saturation speed in Canada, but the US, not as much. Our populations aren't all concentrated in cold zones, and specifically where our population is GROWING isn't in them.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 11:53:03

baha wrote:I've been thinking about this problem. How to heat an electric car?


The wife turns this dial on the dashboard, and heat comes out of the vents. How do you heat yours? 8O
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 13:47:58

AdamB wrote:
baha wrote:I've been thinking about this problem. How to heat an electric car?


The wife turns this dial on the dashboard, and heat comes out of the vents. How do you heat yours? 8O

How many miles of range does it lose heating the cab?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 14:49:00

dolanbaker wrote:
AdamB wrote:
baha wrote:I've been thinking about this problem. How to heat an electric car?


The wife turns this dial on the dashboard, and heat comes out of the vents. How do you heat yours? 8O

How many miles of range does it lose heating the cab?

Part of the 25% to 30% efficiency losses cited above are for heating. Even if you wear a coat, in very cold weather icing on windows has to be handled, or you can't see well, over time.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 22:51:07

rockdoc123 wrote:
The only real need for heating in a vehicle cab is to keep the windows clear of fog or frost.


Obviously, you have never driven in a Canadian prairie winter. We get -30 C and sometimes -40 C. Without heat in the cab you are a human icicle.


Again I have to point out how many people commute to work only to park their ass and bang on a keyboard all day. How many of those people like to scrape ice off their car and slip and slide their way through dangerous roads just to park their ass and bang on a keyboard all day when they could just stay home with a hot choc and connect to the work network via VPN?

All that's required to wipe craploads of oil demand off the books is a cultural change in corporate america towards telecommuting. And that's with zero EVs on the roads.

And yet I read these whiney stories from people who say they can't buy an EV because they have a 100+ mile commute uphill through arctic conditions. Who the F is willing to drive 100 miles to work each day and what are the odds that the job absolutely demands on-site presence??

The reasons people commute the way they do is a combination of dumb tradition and the fact that oil remains so damn cheap that there's no compelling reasons to break from those traditions.

So it's just silly to keep trotting out extreme commuting stories because those are just not going to persist much longer.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 19 Aug 2017, 12:38:07

asg70 wrote:
rockdoc123 wrote:
The only real need for heating in a vehicle cab is to keep the windows clear of fog or frost.


Obviously, you have never driven in a Canadian prairie winter. We get -30 C and sometimes -40 C. Without heat in the cab you are a human icicle.


Again I have to point out how many people commute to work only to park their ass and bang on a keyboard all day. How many of those people like to scrape ice off their car and slip and slide their way through dangerous roads just to park their ass and bang on a keyboard all day when they could just stay home with a hot choc and connect to the work network via VPN?

All that's required to wipe craploads of oil demand off the books is a cultural change in corporate america towards telecommuting. And that's with zero EVs on the roads.

And yet I read these whiney stories from people who say they can't buy an EV because they have a 100+ mile commute uphill through arctic conditions. Who the F is willing to drive 100 miles to work each day and what are the odds that the job absolutely demands on-site presence??

The reasons people commute the way they do is a combination of dumb tradition and the fact that oil remains so damn cheap that there's no compelling reasons to break from those traditions.

So it's just silly to keep trotting out extreme commuting stories because those are just not going to persist much longer.

But if you read lots of corporate and business news (as I do), you see that (stupidly, IMO, but it's corporate management so no surprise there), LOTS of corporations, with lots of people banging on keyboards, are moving back toward having herds of people at a central location where they can "work together more effectively".

And that's the IBM's, HP's, etc. of the world and talking about I/T people who literally, bang away all day on keyboards to do their work.

Now you look at all the management and related jobs, plus all the people who still do and make stuff -- where, from what I read, upper management reasonably "needs" those people at a central location.

So while I agree with you in principle that where it makes sense, telecommuting would be smart -- I'm not ready to buy that telecommuting is going to become super common real soon now. Especially if cheap gas and then cheap electricity and then cheap driverless EV's are going to be the chief transport for the coming decades.

OTOH, rockdoc, as I said upthread, is ignoring the commute length for the VAST majority of folks, and that it's a 25% to 30% mileage decrease -- NOT FUD re unspecified "problems" with EV's that impact EV's in cold weather. (Thus with 300 mile rated EV's becoming a reality, it's not an issue for over 90% of commuters -- even in a place like Canada, much less the US).
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 19 Aug 2017, 22:23:06

dolanbaker wrote:
AdamB wrote:
baha wrote:I've been thinking about this problem. How to heat an electric car?


The wife turns this dial on the dashboard, and heat comes out of the vents. How do you heat yours? 8O

How many miles of range does it lose heating the cab?


The "electro range meter" loses about 20% the instant you turn on the heat, and it needs to warm the coolant to give it to the driver. If the engine has previously been on, not as much, the coolant already being warmed up. I assume the warming takes place in the heater core, or a small coolant loop, because it heats up WAY too fast when cold, off just the battery. Far faster than a normal ICE powered car can do from using the engine.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 20 Aug 2017, 11:26:14

20% isn't really an issue if your journey is typically only a few kilometres or so, different story if you're travelling a long distance and need as much range as possible.
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