Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 18:25:24

Outcast_Searcher wrote:-snip-
What incentives aren't working? The obvious incentive to steer people away from burning lots of gasoline, without mandating it would be a big CO2 tax. Hell, we can't even pass a tiny CO2 tax. The federal tax incentives to buy Plug in Hybrids and BEV's rapidly fade away, so they're not enough. The state and local incentives are few and far between.

I'd prefer incentives too, but what we have now seems to be mostly ignoring the problem, so the people in power get reliably re-elected.


The problem is that the BEV technology is here, but the interest in BEVs is not. Nor is it a chicken-and-egg problem with chargers, everybody's garage is the charger they should be using most.

OTOH, a carbon tax would not incent the move to EVs. With the majority of grid power generated by coal and natural gas, the grid would be taxed heavily. Not to mention that states are now leveling EV fees to compensate for the lack of fuel taxes.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4199
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 18:35:34

Outcast_Searcher wrote:The federal tax incentives to buy Plug in Hybrids and BEV's rapidly fade away


Rapidly indeed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN1D2282

I really don't understand why some people here who supposedly care so much about peak-oil can also be staunch republicans. It's either extreme cognitive dissonance or simply preferring the collective suffering of doom to reasonable mitigation.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 18:49:56

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:The federal tax incentives to buy Plug in Hybrids and BEV's rapidly fade away


Rapidly indeed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN1D2282

I really don't understand why some people here who supposedly care so much about peak-oil can also be staunch republicans. It's either extreme cognitive dissonance or simply preferring the collective suffering of doom to reasonable mitigation.
I know of no "reasonable mitigation" that is being proposed by the Democrats that has a chance of working.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8029
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GHung » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 19:01:19

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:The federal tax incentives to buy Plug in Hybrids and BEV's rapidly fade away


Rapidly indeed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN1D2282

I really don't understand why some people here who supposedly care so much about peak-oil can also be staunch republicans. It's either extreme cognitive dissonance or simply preferring the collective suffering of doom to reasonable mitigation.


If these tax cuts become law, you're going to see a lot of programs cut. Electric vehicle credit? Think Medicaid, Medicare, SNAP, all other social programs.....
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1793
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 21:55:18

KaiserJeep wrote:The problem is that the BEV technology is here, but the interest in BEVs is not. Nor is it a chicken-and-egg problem with chargers, everybody's garage is the charger they should be using most.

OTOH, a carbon tax would not incent the move to EVs. With the majority of grid power generated by coal and natural gas, the grid would be taxed heavily. Not to mention that states are now leveling EV fees to compensate for the lack of fuel taxes.

I hear you on all of that, but a significant CO2 tax would, it seems to me, strongly incent the move toward rooftop solar and battery backup / time shifting. Folks like Baha are proving that the technology is viable. But for folks like me who want a turn-key operation, it is expensive.

But a big CO2 tax would completely change the math over 20 years so suddenly it wouldn't look way overpriced to get the solar. At that point, charging a BEV or a PHEV is an obvious way to save money and leverage that solar investment.

The whole idea is to try to get people to go beyond burning mostly coal or NG to power their EV's, or we're not buying much re CO2 mitigation.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4062
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 22:00:21

GHung wrote:If these tax cuts become law, you're going to see a lot of programs cut. Electric vehicle credit? Think Medicaid, Medicare, SNAP, all other social programs.....

Nonsense. More doom without substance.

Look, Obama presided over a $9 trillion increase in the federal debt. Now how many minor programs (net) were cut, much less major untouchable things like Medicare? My answer is basically, zero.

I understand you might not LIKE the tax cuts. (I don't like net tax cuts until we've not only balanced the budget, but have paid off most of the debt and are on a clear path to getting it ALL paid off in a decade -- fat chance of that).

But adding one sixth of what Obama added over the next decade is NOT anything approaching doom -- it's just stupid and short-sighted. Which is what most of the clowns on Capitol Hill are on BOTH sides of the aisle -- no matter how much they CLAIM they don't like deficits (until it comes to protecting the programs they favor, at all costs).
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4062
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby jawagord » Fri 03 Nov 2017, 08:32:32

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:The federal tax incentives to buy Plug in Hybrids and BEV's rapidly fade away


Rapidly indeed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN1D2282

I really don't understand why some people here who supposedly care so much about peak-oil can also be staunch republicans. It's either extreme cognitive dissonance or simply preferring the collective suffering of doom to reasonable mitigation.


I don't think these republicans are concerned with peak oil. But there is cognitive dissonance here for anyone who thinks buying a new car of any type is good for the environment. Production of vehicles is one of the worst things for the planet and purchasing a new vehicle is probably the single worst thing a person can do to cause damage to the planet's environment, assuming damage to the planet is the concern? EV's are no better than ICE vehicles in this regard, how about we stop subsidizing car companies (and plane companies) period?

http://www.dw.com/en/how-eco-friendly-a ... a-19441437
jawagord
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon 29 May 2017, 09:49:17

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 03 Nov 2017, 08:33:45

vtsnowedin wrote:I know of no "reasonable mitigation" that is being proposed by the Democrats that has a chance of working.


And that, apparently, is the go-to retort. If you think there should be reasonable mitigation why not actually hold your party accountable rather than just finger-pointing? The tribalism and displacement of blame has no end even if this forum stays up while we're busy subsisting on cockroaches and long-pork.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 03 Nov 2017, 09:37:49

asg70 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:I know of no "reasonable mitigation" that is being proposed by the Democrats that has a chance of working.


And that, apparently, is the go-to retort. If you think there should be reasonable mitigation why not actually hold your party accountable rather than just finger-pointing? The tribalism and displacement of blame has no end even if this forum stays up while we're busy subsisting on cockroaches and long-pork.

You are missing the point that there is no reasonable and effective mitigation that anyone can be for. All suggested policies are unworkable and ineffective on a world scale and are just political taking points intended to win votes and nothing more.
When Al Gore parks his jet get back to me.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8029
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 03 Nov 2017, 09:51:26

vtsnowedin wrote:You are missing the point that there is no reasonable and effective mitigation that anyone can be for.


Which is yet another excuse to justify doing nothing. The Koch brothers thank you for your fatalism. See a pattern here?
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 03 Nov 2017, 12:48:22

vtsnowedin wrote:You are missing the point that there is no reasonable and effective mitigation that anyone can be for.

I respectfully disagree with that.

There is no reasonable and effective mitigation that first world politicians or their constituents are generally willing to take. The most common reasons I see cited are:

1). That would be inconvenient. (Generally financially, or in forcing people to have somewhat lower standards of living (stuff piled in the garage, basement, attic, etc) in the short to medium term).

2). No solution is perfect. (As though that means we should do nothing).

3). Solution X is unaffordable because I don't like some political ramification of it -- or it doesn't meet all my criteria. (i.e. it's imperfect for some specific reason).

I still say a BIG CO2 tax would go a long way toward mitigation over time.

Anyone think a dollar a pound CO2 AGW tax wouldn't force a LOT of behavior change?

And I say it's not unworkable if:

1). It's phased in over time, like a decade or two.
2). There are some sort of tax credits to prevent the poor from disaster. In fact, the right tax credit scheme could let truly poor people who drastically reduce carbon consumption to end up net financial beneficiaries.
3). A lot of that is compensated for with lower income taxes for the poor (who already net, pay negative income tax rates in the US), the lower middle class (who basically pay little or no income taxes) and especially the upper middle class (who pay a moderate amount of income taxes).

The key thing is a big incentive would push people into far more solar, wind, geothermal, EV's, PHEV's, less waste, efficient furnaces and A/C, weatherproofing, and simply being CAREFUL and FRUGAL with the hydrocarbons that they burn -- far faster than any scheme I can imagine being implemented. Certainly far faster than anything being timidly contemplated (or can kicking like the Paris Climate accords).

But no, virtually no one wants to do something like that, according to the reactions I get. I get told it's unworkable due to some variation of the three I gave above.

And so here we sit, cooking ourselves and future generations. But that doesn't mean we can't buy time for a fighting chance -- just that we can't be bothered as a society to do so.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4062
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 03 Nov 2017, 13:16:56

You're all headed to prison camps in 3 years unless you can master The Quantum in your head without slogging along at a snails pace with experimental plodding, admit it. Otherwise you are just brainless cattle. The only alternative is The Hydrogen Economy powered by mythical fusion reactors that consume only the common isotope of hydrogen in seawater. Nothing else is possible except fighting over oil dregs as unveiled by this book:

Image

Introduction: the problem of energy
Part I Oil dregs
1. Oil and the crash of 2007-8
2. The century of oil
3. Consuming miles
4. Carbon capital
5. Peaking
6. The Chinese century?
7. The curse of oil
Part II Social futures
8. Magic bullet future
9. Digital lives
10. Resource fights
11. Low carbon society
12. After easy oil
The 200 Year Scrap for Crap Oil will soon begin.
StarvingLion
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 01:54:28

StarvingLion wrote:Image

The book was published in early 2013. I glanced through some of it on Amazon -- typical doomer nonsense, like shipping oil to China will be a problem due to ships "falling apart", resource fights, etc.

Bad time to be predicting fighting over the dregs 18 months before a huge multi-year glut, and still going.

Be sure and get back to us when there is an actual problem getting affordable oil. Meanwhile, every year that doesn't happen, the green energy markets and technology develop and support for them (like EV charging) is further built out.

If there's less oil and it forces the price up, incenting more green energy, that's a GOOD things which hapless politicians won't make happen via a CO2 tax.

...

But by all means, let's pretend we'll all be in prison camps within 3 years, since FUD is fun to spread. Get a life.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4062
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 09:13:51

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
I still say a BIG CO2 tax would go a long way toward mitigation over time.

Anyone think a dollar a pound CO2 AGW tax wouldn't force a LOT of behavior change?

.
How are you going to impose that tax on China and India?
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8029
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 09:36:49

vtsnowedin wrote: How are you going to impose that tax on China and India?


You don't. They do it on their own. This whole Mexican standoff of "you first" is just an excuse to do nothing.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Cog » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 10:04:08

China and India are going to impose carbon taxes on themselves to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage? I'll have a Coke and wait to see that event happen.
User avatar
Cog
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 9487
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 11:10:20

Cog wrote:China and India are going to impose carbon taxes on themselves to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage? I'll have a Coke and wait to see that event happen.

I'll have a glass of Chardonnay and keep the rest of the bottle handy.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8029
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby StarvingLion » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 17:21:53

But by all means, let's pretend we'll all be in prison camps within 3 years


Its already happening. You're living in a bankrupt Banana Republic, See below:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ene ... 78eb6f2679

Mark Z. Jacobson, a Stanford University professor who has prominently contended that the United States can fully power itself with wind, water and solar energy, is suing the National Academy of Sciences and the lead author of a study published in its flagship journal that criticized Jacobson’s views — pushing an already bitter academic dispute into a courtroom setting.
The 200 Year Scrap for Crap Oil will soon begin.
StarvingLion
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby StarvingLion » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 17:26:46

Here is a hour long interview with the author of 'Societies beyond Oil'. He admits there will be no other realistic scenario besides Mad Max 2. And yes he said 'Mad Max 2'. "Oil is Brilliant"....and it cannot be replaced.

Oil is Brilliant

Natural Gas is not.
Nuclear is not.
"Renewables" is not.
etc etc.

Nothing can replace North Ghawar Oil.

Read it and weep folks. There will probably be 300 years of Mad Max 2 over Oil Dregs. Will start in 3 years time tops.

http://w3.unisa.edu.au/hawkecentre/even ... hnUrry.mp3
The 200 Year Scrap for Crap Oil will soon begin.
StarvingLion
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby StarvingLion » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 17:33:39

How can Bankrupt Scamerica power EV's when its shutting down all its coal plants and exporting Ponzi Gas because it is xxxxing broke and has to pay bills?

You people aren't even qualified to live in DisneyWorld. There is nobody home between the ears.

http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2017/ ... thers.html

ERCOT approved the closure of one Luminant coal plant, but won’t decide the fate of two others until next month, the Houston Chronicle reported.

The decision by Texas’ grid operator will allow Luminant to shut down the 1,800-MW Monticello coal plant by January 2018. Vistra had said operating the plant was no longer economical.

Luminant also wants to shutter the Sandow and Big Brown coal plants, which have a combined capacity of 2,300 MW. However, ERCOT must still determine if their operation is necessary to keep the state’s grid stable.

ERCOT previously reported that the retirement of all three plants would drop reserve margins to 12.4 percent in the summer of 2018 to 10.6 percent in the summer of 2022. The grid operator has a target reserve capacity of 13.75 percent.
The 200 Year Scrap for Crap Oil will soon begin.
StarvingLion
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron