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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 08:25:53

baha wrote:Hydrogen fuel cells are a bad choice. The only way to cleanly make hydrogen is with electrolysis. Which is a very inefficient process. About as good as burning FFs in an ICE. We already know solar power doesn't produce as much energy as FFs (yet) so why waste a bunch of it doing conversions? A fuel cell vehicle has an electric motor. Why convert electricity to H2 and then convert it back to electricity while losing more than half along the way?

The only advantage of a fuel cell vehicle is range and fueling speed. There is the problem with our society...everyone's always in a big hurry. Just slow down and enjoy the ride :)

Burning fossil fuel in an ICE is the state of the art and works quite acceptably to millions of drivers. If fuel cells are about as efficient that would be great. If fuel cells have the advantages of range and refueling speed that is just that two advantages. Your making Plantees case while disagreeing with him. :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby baha » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 08:54:13

I am merely contrasting her paradigm with mine.

No doubt society is happy with FF efficiency and would be even happier to transfer to Fuel Cells. But we all know that's not going to happen. As FFs decline there will be less excess energy to throw away.

Our entire JIT, zoom around at 70mph, heat your 4000 sq-ft house, conspicuous consumer society is based on wasting energy...We all know that's going to end. Question is what will be left?

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 09:40:03

Looks bony to me :o
As to the fuel cells vs. batteries debate it should come down to the final life cycle costs including pollution while they mine the lithium and other components for each. With a little experience we should be able to nail that down in terms of cost per mile and costs per ton mile for the heavier vehicles carrying more then one passenger/driver or cargo. What is the status of the world lithium supply and who controls what shares of it. To go all electric battery cars we would need to double the capacity of our electric grid and as we are seeing in Puerto Rico that isn't cheap so perhaps hydrogen fueling stations aren't so cost prohibitive.
Using coal fired electricity to charge car batteries makes no sense and using renewable wind and solar to compress and store hydrogen cracked from natural gas makes even less.
But the one that gets me is all these city and State governments that are sure they can phase out ICE vehicles by a date certain while they have no clue about the costs to achieve that transition or even if it is truly feasible.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 09:51:08

Functionally, a fuel cell is another form of battery. Energy is consumed making a fuel, usually hydrogen. Then the energy is recovered when the fuel is consumed. This is basicly storing/recovering electricity, similar to how BEVs work as well, and it is fundamentally different from ICE vehicles, where a fuel is pumped out of the Earth and refined, before being burned and producing an astonishing amount of power as it burns.

One of the problems with BEVs, fuel cell vehicles, and the like is that our electric grid capacity must be greatly enlarged to accomodate large numbers of vehicles that store electrical energy.

Another problem is that our power grid infrastructure does not support high capacity chargers in most locations. BEVs are best trickle-charged over several hours, but every night you must plug it and every morning you must unplug before driving. Well-off Tesla owners who nevertheless lack patience here in the Silly Valley are discovering that they cannot own their own Tesla Supercharger in most cases, because they do not have the power feed to support such a charger at their residence. In case you are wondering, the Supercharger cost is between $100,000 and $175,000 per vehicle charging station, depending upon both the power feed and the amount of site preparation. Tesla funds most such installations themselves and the business owners who believe that these installations are good for business must commit to 5 or 10 years of having that portion of their real estate devoted to EV charging.

FWIW, here in the Silly Valley it is a good deal. You can go online to make charger reservations along with a table for your party of however many people. In many cases, there are concierge parking attendants to plug in your car and then unplug and spritz it with aromatherapy when it is charged.

This country has in excess of 600,000 fuel dispensing stations, and most of them are not ready to power even one rapid charger, let alone several. You are entirely right about the cost of infrastructure conversion. Hydrogen refuelling stations here in the Silly Valley are much rarer than Superchargers, and the tab for one of those is over a million dollars.
Last edited by KaiserJeep on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 09:55:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GHung » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 09:52:09

"But the one that gets me is all these city and State governments that are sure they can phase out ICE vehicles by a date certain while they have no clue about the costs to achieve that transition or even if it is truly feasible."


Let the industry and markets figure it out the same way they figured out seat belts, catalytic converters, pollution controls, airbags, crash standards, fuel mileage standards.....
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 09:58:02

GHung wrote:
"But the one that gets me is all these city and State governments that are sure they can phase out ICE vehicles by a date certain while they have no clue about the costs to achieve that transition or even if it is truly feasible."


Let the industry and markets figure it out the same way they figured out seat belts, catalytic converters, pollution controls, airbags, crash standards, fuel mileage standards.....

I think this problem is an order of magnitude more difficult than any of those.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 02:23:39

asg70 wrote:
baha wrote:Why convert electricity to H2 and then convert it back to electricity while losing more than half along the way?


Because Plant thinks it's a good technology and now we're probably going to waste the next few pages with him pulling one increasingly bogus defense of it after another out of his ass.

It might have some value in terms of quick recharge/turn around for a bus fleet or taxi fleet as opposed to waiting for a regular battery recharge.
Or as a way of converting and storing excess power from wind turbines or solar panels.

The major draw back for EV is the recharge time and range
Maybe when battery packs become universal and get small enough and light enough so they can be changed at service stations or recharged by more efficient roof top solar chargers ????
You would imagine this is still decades off.
So I think we will have hybrid for some and pure EV for others.

To me EV is useless for when I need to travel 1.5 hours each way to go shopping.
Even a hybrid relies on braking to charge the batteries and there arent too many stop signs or lights between me and the shops.
Even so my next car will probably be a Honda hybrid second hand in 4 or 5 years time.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 06:07:14

Asg wrote:his ass ....

baha wrote:her ass ....


Now we’ve got two Potty mouths overflowing at the same time.

Flush again, boys. Your potty mouths are still leaking

Cheers!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 06:12:02

Shaved Monkey wrote:
The major draw back for EV is the recharge time and range
.


Yup. And fuel cells solve both those problems. You can fill the car up with “gas”and go just like you would in an ICE vehicle

Cheers!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Revi » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 07:18:33

I would say the problem is parts! We built an electric vehicle and needed to get parts.
Even a car you build yourself is hard to keep running without parts.
We went to a Gem Car, and it worked well for over 10 years, until we needed to get new rotors for the disc brakes.
Can't get them, and it may be the end of the vehicle.

What a stupid system. It's a 2005!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 07:55:54

Shaved Monkey wrote:-snip-
The major draw back for EV is the recharge time and range
Maybe when battery packs become universal and get small enough and light enough so they can be changed at service stations or recharged by more efficient roof top solar chargers ????
You would imagine this is still decades off.
So I think we will have hybrid for some and pure EV for others.

To me EV is useless for when I need to travel 1.5 hours each way to go shopping.
Even a hybrid relies on braking to charge the batteries and there arent too many stop signs or lights between me and the shops.
Even so my next car will probably be a Honda hybrid second hand in 4 or 5 years time.


Wrong about that one. A Tesla Supercharger tops off a Tesla automobile from 20% to 80% capacity in 30 minutes, adding 170 miles range. If you have 75 minutes, it provides a tapering charge to 100% capacity.

Nor is your stated 1.5 hours each way outside the capacity of a modern EV. The Tesla Model S and Model 3 offer 310 miles range and the Tesla Model X SUV is good for 289 miles. All three would provide 3 hour round trips, complete with hills and stop lights while carrying cargo. The Chevy Bolt would do the same with 238 miles range, with less reserve. Lesser vehicles like the Nissan Leaf (or a half-dozen down-size competitors) would require a quick topoff charge to 80% between the two halves of the trip.

The truth is that with the typical usage profiles of modern consumers, BEV technology can today replace 92% of day-to-day ICE car, SUV, and light truck usage. The remaining 8% can use PHEV tech in everyday usage and still shave 25% of their current fuel bills.

Exception usage scenarios include trucks over 1/2 ton capacity and vacation vehicles (cars, SUVs, and RVs) and offroad vehicles and tow vehicles for heavy trailers and boats. Many people already own seperate tow vehicles and offroad toys. Applying annual, recurrent gas guzzler taxes and much of this usage would shift from heavy vehicle ownership to periodic rentals.

Bottom line: we could reduce private vehicle gasoline and diesel consumption by 3/4ths using BEVs, via a very unpopular political move mandating their use. The heavier contractor trucks, the RVs and tow vehicles beloved by seniors and others, they are harder problems to solve. Frankly anybody operating a vehicle over 5000 lbs needs to be penalized for the damage it does to streets and highways, and very few states do so today.

The Libertarian in me would prefer that we do this with incentives (the carrot) rather than mandates (the stick). But incentives are not working, people are set in their ways, even some of the people in this thread.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Cog » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 09:42:55

Yes because government solutions always work much better than market solutions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:52:21

I really think if someone wants to talk fuel cells then put it in its own thread. There are a whole host of pros and cons and I could list them out but it would take the thread off-topic.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:57:22

There is no need for government mandates to switch to EVs if they make sense. When and if gas gets to $5.00+ a gallon and stays there people will switch to EVs as quick as they can and the charging stations will follow. The government could help it along by raising the gas tax to a level that allows for the proper maintenance of the countries infrastructure but experience shows that most such efforts are beset with politicians siphoning off large chunks of the funds to pet projects and outright corruption.
The big perhaps insurmountable problem is the need to double the grid capacity and generating capacity to provide the mega watt hours of electricity needed.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 14:20:34

vtsnowedin wrote:
The big perhaps insurmountable problem is the need to double the grid capacity and generating capacity to provide the mega watt hours of electricity needed.


Why do you consider only grid based capacity? How about small scale distributed capacity?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 14:46:32

AdamB wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
The big perhaps insurmountable problem is the need to double the grid capacity and generating capacity to provide the mega watt hours of electricity needed.


Why do you consider only grid based capacity? How about small scale distributed capacity?


Trickle charging a BEV at night via the grid requires a $0 investment using an existing 115v garage receptacle and the charger cord that came with the car. The faster 220v charger is a sub-$1000 installation.

Either solar PV or wind is not suitable for either, as solar PV is zero at night and wind is much diminished at night. So basicly all these BEVs charge from grid power, unless you have a battery at the residence. If so, the BEVs will add to the frequency and depth of discharge, beyond what the residence itself does. Overall shortening of battery life is the result.

If you work at night and charge your BEV in the daytime while the renewables are online and near capacity - nevermind the above.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 16:36:41

Cog wrote:Yes because government solutions always work much better than market solutions.

They have in Norway
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 16:36:57

KaiserJeep wrote:The Libertarian in me would prefer that we do this with incentives (the carrot) rather than mandates (the stick). But incentives are not working, people are set in their ways, even some of the people in this thread.

What incentives aren't working? The obvious incentive to steer people away from burning lots of gasoline, without mandating it would be a big CO2 tax. Hell, we can't even pass a tiny CO2 tax. The federal tax incentives to buy Plug in Hybrids and BEV's rapidly fade away, so they're not enough. The state and local incentives are few and far between.

I'd prefer incentives too, but what we have now seems to be mostly ignoring the problem, so the people in power get reliably re-elected.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 16:49:02

KaiserJeep wrote:
Wrong about that one. A Tesla Supercharger tops off a Tesla automobile from 20% to 80% capacity in 30 minutes, adding 170 miles range. If you have 75 minutes, it provides a tapering charge to 100% capacity.

30 minutes is still a long time to be waiting around unless they have unused chargers in the shopping centre carpark (which they dont)
KaiserJeep wrote:Nor is your stated 1.5 hours each way outside the capacity of a modern EV. The Tesla Model S and Model 3 offer 310 miles range and the Tesla Model X SUV is good for 289 miles. All three would provide 3 hour round trips, complete with hills and stop lights while carrying cargo. The Chevy Bolt would do the same with 238 miles range, with less reserve. Lesser vehicles like the Nissan Leaf (or a half-dozen down-size competitors) would require a quick topoff charge to 80% between the two halves of the trip.

Then it comes down to price, availability and convenience.
Which makes none of them an option in Australia

The bigger picture for me is cost of vehicle v savings.
Spending silly money to save a few hundred a year doesnt add up for me and my minimal driving.
But a second hand Honda Hybrid in a few years to replace my current ICE Honda makes sense as its going to need replacing and I might as well get the most efficient I can get for minimal dollars.
Ive never bought a new car or a new house in my life its a total waste of money.
The new premium disappears as soon as the money changes hand
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 18:05:42

AdamB wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
The big perhaps insurmountable problem is the need to double the grid capacity and generating capacity to provide the mega watt hours of electricity needed.


Why do you consider only grid based capacity? How about small scale distributed capacity?

The actual numbers of KWHs needed to drive the average USA car the average miles being driven. It amounts to 100 percent of our current grid capacity and production. Ain't nothin small scale about it if you are talking a complete switch over to EVs.
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