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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 06:41:57

Tanada wrote:[


I would call that a mining truck, a specialized kind of large dump truck where the bed tilts to release the cargo load.

Yes that is what it is but that was not the issue. They can certainly build electric powered farm machinery that is fully functional. After all today most construction and farm equipment uses hydro-static transmissions as well as hydraulic pistons so it is simply a matter of mating an electric motor to the hydraulic pump and your in business. That leaves the space containing the ICE diesel engine to be replaced with the batteries.
The issue is can this electric powered equipment do as much work in a day as the diesel equipment keeping in mind that optimum planting and harvesting times are short and weather dependent. With untaxed Ag off road diesel going for $2.35 a gallon and the ability of the diesel to work all day on a tank of fuel the diesel equipment still has a significant advantage when computing cost per acre and profits per acre.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby baha » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 07:06:45

Good point VT,
But turn it around...Just because one tractor and one person can farm 10,000 acres today doesn't mean it has to be that way. A more rural economy with each farmer working 1000 acres might be do-able. And a slow moving tractor could have a solar roof that self-charges or removable battery packs like my cordless chainsaw.

Just sayin'...

And all those truck drivers who are going to lose their jobs can learn to drive a tractor :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 08:04:49

baha wrote:And all those truck drivers who are going to lose their jobs can learn to drive a tractor :)


I've heard that tractors are already on the way to being automated as well.

In the first-world, as far as the near-term horizon of the next, oh, 10-20 years, I'd say automation is more of an existential threat to people's quality of life than anything else, via the displacement of more and more highly skilled labor. Not something peakers anticipated. I expect environmental problems to eventually catch up and cause problems high tech can't solve.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 10:15:21

baha wrote:Good point VT,
But turn it around...Just because one tractor and one person can farm 10,000 acres today doesn't mean it has to be that way. A more rural economy with each farmer working 1000 acres might be do-able. And a slow moving tractor could have a solar roof that self-charges or removable battery packs like my cordless chainsaw.

Just sayin'...

And all those truck drivers who are going to lose their jobs can learn to drive a tractor :)

As long as the 10,000 acre farm can undercut the price paid to the 1000 acre farm the 1000 acre farms remains nonviable. Get bigger or get out has been the constant refrain post WW2 and the switch from horse to tractor power.
And yes modern tractors are increasingly controlled by GPS to precisely control row and plant spacing and even apply fertilizers where satellite scans have determined just which sections of field are in need.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 11:35:12

vtsnowedin wrote:The issue is can this electric powered equipment do as much work in a day as the diesel equipment keeping in mind that optimum planting and harvesting times are short and weather dependent. With untaxed Ag off road diesel going for $2.35 a gallon and the ability of the diesel to work all day on a tank of fuel the diesel equipment still has a significant advantage when computing cost per acre and profits per acre.

Yes, there's two issues to replacing a given vehicle class that runs on fossil fuels today.

1). Can it do the same work at the same intensity over X hours?

2). What does it COST, relative to doing it with fossil fuels?

As battery technology and EV technology generally improves, the economic question will move toward EV's. The only question is how fast. Oh, and if oil prices ever rise considerably for a period of years, that will clearly hasten the process.

When the economic advantage becomes large enough, then minor issues like swapping batteries, etc. will be relative child's play to implement. People and businesses WILL put up with minor inconveniences to save lots of money.

So it's really just a matter of how many decades until that happens for a given EV technology, unless engineers can find no practical way to replace given ICE work with an EV. Aside from the constant denial and FUD in certain quarters, I'm betting that the number of those cases is minor. (For example, there is no reason moderate haul EV semi trucks (like the one Tesla is set to unveil in under 2 weeks) can't swap modular batteries at truck stops to give them the functionality of long haul trucks. And once the economic case for such trucks is compelling, some solution like that will be utilized by profit seeking haulers (and truck stops) -- even if it has some minor inconvenience involved.)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 12:24:19

I know that the present electric semi-trailer truck designs use replaceable battery modules in the same approximate location as the diesel fuel tanks on existing heavy trucks. The battery modules can be swapped with a forklift in the same or less time than filling fuel tanks, every few hundred highway miles. The lack of battery swap infrastructure is the only thing preventing deployment of these designs.

The key is designing the vehicle from the start for electric operation. I don't know of any large farm equipment designs, but there is nothing to prevent similar battery swap arrangements. With two batteries and two trained operators, no reason farm equipment could not be in use 24 hours per day. You are discharging the battery in the machine while charging the one outside the machine.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:25:51

KaiserJeep wrote:The lack of battery swap infrastructure is the only thing preventing deployment of these designs.

No. Not the only thing. The vehicle must be engineered from the ground up, along with the swap-out system.

Elon was not up to the challenge, he chose to build another flashlight-battery factory. The entire EV's paradigm will fail because Elon chose the easy-peasy path. The change-out infrastructure and the change-out car market must develop simultaneously.
Better Place was a venture-backed international company that developed and sold battery-charging and battery-switching services for electric cars. It was formally based in Palo Alto, California, but the bulk of its planning and operations were steered from Israel, where both its founder Shai Agassi and its chief investors resided.

The floor-mounted battery packs in these electric cars were designed to be changed out robotically in less than two minutes, which was quicker than the average petroleum refuel, allowing for battery-swap services like those proposed by Better Place and Tesla Motors.[59] Better Place expected battery packs to cost between US 4¢ and 5¢ per mile over their life,[60] provide the cars with a 160 km (99 mi) range per charge, perform for 2000 recharge cycles, and last for 8 years.[61]

The quick swap-out would have solved the EV charging dilemma. (all night and all day at 120 volt house current). Elon failed.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 14:46:44

pstarr wrote:The entire EV's paradigm will fail because Elon chose the easy-peasy path.


That's what you've hitched your wagon onto now? EVs will fail because we won't have quick swap battery packs?

You weren't even mentioning this last week or the week before. You just keep flailing and fishing around for any sort of FUD you can grab.

pstarr wrote:The quick swap-out would have solved the EV charging dilemma.


There's is no "dilemma".

Battery swaps were always just a workaround, similar to plugin-hybrids. Fast-charge and 200+ mile packs are good enough for mainstream adoption.

So tired of your worthless drive-by pronouncements...
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 15:09:08

asg70 wrote:
pstarr wrote:The entire EV's paradigm will fail because Elon chose the easy-peasy path.


That's what you've hitched your wagon onto now? EVs will fail because we won't have quick swap battery packs?

You weren't even mentioning this last week or the week before.
you don't care about anyone or thing this forum, except for your agenda. You don't know me or my posts. Do your own homework, boy then you can debate the adults in constructive conversation.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 15:16:20

pstarr wrote:you don't care about anyone or thing this forum, except for your agenda.


My agenda? You mean reality???

The facts speak for themselves as far as the trendlines. You're busy "calling" EVs dead and trying to dis Elon Musk while VW/Volvo/GM/Ford have recently announced huge EV initiatives while entire countries are setting timetables for ICE phaseout.

You're living in your own doomer reality distortion field.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 18:00:21

Considering that there are 254 million registered vehicles on the road and 15 million of them heavy trucks and 0.7 million buses and that there are only 4.7 million tractors on USA farms I think the farm tractors will be the last thing converted to electric drive.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 22:24:51

vtsnowedin wrote:Considering that there are 254 million registered vehicles on the road and 15 million of them heavy trucks and 0.7 million buses and that there are only 4.7 million tractors on USA farms I think the farm tractors will be the last thing converted to electric drive.


Doesn't seem like the matter is urgent at present, given the glut. Should there be significant penetration of EVs into the light passenger car segment, that alone will ease oil demand, freeing it up for use in areas where EVs are least practical (including air travel which will probably never be electric-driven).
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GHung » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 22:41:20

asg70 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Considering that there are 254 million registered vehicles on the road and 15 million of them heavy trucks and 0.7 million buses and that there are only 4.7 million tractors on USA farms I think the farm tractors will be the last thing converted to electric drive.


Doesn't seem like the matter is urgent at present, given the glut. Should there be significant penetration of EVs into the light passenger car segment, that alone will ease oil demand, freeing it up for use in areas where EVs are least practical (including air travel which will probably never be electric-driven).


Except for the part where light passenger cars don't use much diesel or kerosene, and jets, tractors and heavy trucks don't burn gasoline.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 23:48:20

GHung wrote:light passenger cars don't use much diesel


In Europe they do.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 23:56:18

"...I think the farm tractors will be the last thing converted to electric drive." Maybe but could be a great synergistic possibility. They don't run at night as a general rule so no need for a fast charge systems. And farmers tend to have a lot of spare areas to install panels. Weight might not be as big an issue since most tractors arn't driven 60 mph. And there are extended periods when that equipment isn't operating so that electricity could be used elsewhere...like at the home, grain dyers or irrigation pumps. And you might not have to buy an entire new tractor...just swap motors if that's feasible.

Someone who actually spends a lot of time driving a tractors might have other positive ideas.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 01:11:34

vtsnowedin wrote:Yes that is what it is but that was not the issue. They can certainly build electric powered farm machinery that is fully functional. After all today most construction and farm equipment uses hydro-static transmissions as well as hydraulic pistons so it is simply a matter of mating an electric motor to the hydraulic pump and your in business. That leaves the space containing the ICE diesel engine to be replaced with the batteries.
You mean something like this: Video: John Deere's electric tractor

Electric John Deere tractor runs for 4 hours on a charge. SESAM (Sustainable Energy Supply for Agricultural Machinery), says the company, is the industry’s first fully battery-powered tractor. This prototype machine produces 130kW (174hp) of continuous power and is based on the 6R Series tractor chassis (with an adapted 6M Series cab), using an adapted DirectDrive transmission, with a speed range from 3kph to 50kph at full power. The tractor is emission-free and develops “high torque at low speeds” and a maximum output of around 400hp, with “no energy losses when idling”.

Battery Range And Charging Time
Currently, one battery charge lasts for up to four operating hours in typical mixed mode operations or for around 34 miles of road transport work. Charging time is about three hours. The battery is designed to last for 3100 charging cycles.
Electric John Deere tractor runs for 4 hours on a charge

These researchers looked at another option: Cable and real system like they use in mining equipment:
In an attempt to help wean agriculture off its fossil-fuel addiction, researchers at the Swedish Institute of Agricultural and Environmental Engineering (JTI) have been assessing the potential for using electric tractors plugged into the grid. With BC’s abundant supply of clean, renewable electricity form hydro-electric dams built throughout the Province, the electrification of agriculture will enable a more sustainable food system in BC by shielding our farmers from increasingly scarce and expensive fossil fuels.

To date, JTI have assessed the feasibility of using mains-operated, electrically powered tractors to carry out even heavy fieldwork, such as ploughing and harrowing. For certain operations, the feasibility study concludes that the cost of using a mains-operated electric tractor can be lower than using conventional diesel machines; and this is based on today’s cost of fossil-fuels. The idea is that using a constant cabled power supply, the tractor carries a cable reel and plugs in to fixed connection points around the field. Technology and a special driving pattern are then used to avoid damaging the cable when the tractor carries out the field work. While the cable and connection points are unavoidable, the avoidance of expensive, heavy batteries greatly reduces both the cost and weight of the tractor.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby baha » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 06:29:28

Nice Video Kub,

I recognize those batteries, they were lead acid gel-cells. I've been looking at riding lawnmowers. They use lead acid since the constant load nature of a tractor or mower is better suited to lead acid (for now). And heavy is better for tractors.

But that tech has been around for decades...we could have been making electric tractors for years. But no one cared or was willing to pay the price. Now we are all paying the price...the tech is there, we just have to decide it is worth using.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 08:32:19

kublikhan wrote:........
Electric John Deere tractor runs for 4 hours on a charge. SESAM (Sustainable Energy Supply for Agricultural Machinery), says the company, is the industry’s first fully battery-powered tractor. This prototype machine produces 130kW (174hp) of continuous power and is based on the 6R Series tractor chassis (with an adapted 6M Series cab), using an adapted DirectDrive transmission, with a speed range from 3kph to 50kph at full power. The tractor is emission-free and develops “high torque at low speeds” and a maximum output of around 400hp, with “no energy losses when idling”.

Battery Range And Charging Time
Currently, one battery charge lasts for up to four operating hours in typical mixed mode operations or for around 34 miles of road transport work. Charging time is about three hours. The battery is designed to last for 3100 charging cycles.
Electric John Deere tractor runs for 4 hours on a charge


Yes I'd say that is the state of the art and shows you that real engineers are studying the problem. Four hours of work then a three hour charge time is unacceptable not only because it is just 57 percent of available day light but doesn't account for the distance from field to nearest charge station that must be traveled both ways at each charge interval. 3100 cycles on the battery would be acceptable compared to diesel overhaul intervals but a battery making eight hour work cycles that only lasted 1500 cycles would be more competitive. And as it is a research project there is not one word on unit costs and costs per acre which is the real bottom line.
As to finding someone who drives a lot of tractors I doubt if anyone on this website is currently driving real farm tractors more then I am at present even at my average rate of 120 hours per year on a JD 5045E. A full time farmer will of course have a 1000 to 2000 hours in a tractor cab in a year but I know of none of those that have the time to dawdle around this site. 8)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby cephalotus » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 12:12:05

vtsnowedin wrote:...
Yes I'd say that is the state of the art and shows you that real engineers are studying the problem. Four hours of work then a three hour charge time is unacceptable not only because it is just 57 percent of available day light but....


This technology is already much better than horses or hordes of working slaves, which is the peak oil fetish dream of the doomers like pstarr.

If you have two batteries to swap you can work indefinitely.

And this will not be the end of this technology path. If 4 hours operation is possible today we will see 8 hours in the future...
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby cephalotus » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 12:50:57

pstarr wrote:The quick swap-out would have solved the EV charging dilemma. (all night and all day at 120 volt house current). Elon failed.


No it wouldn't. That's why Agassi failed with better place (I predicted this 10 years ago) and it's why all manufacturers stopped that path (most didn't even try because it was nonsense from the beginning). It could be different for special kind of vehicles like tractors, but not for passenger cars.

The futere is a ca. 100kWh battery and a 350kW (or quicker) charging system, this is good enough for any country in the world but Germany but I doubt that anyone in the world cares about a few thousand people that actually want to drive 220km/h on the Autobahn for longs distances.

The rest of the world will drive 3-4 hours, charge 10-15 minutes, drive 3-4 hours again and so on...
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