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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 21:01:45

Plantagenet wrote:An EU funded study found that EMFs in EVs were typically about twice those found in ICE cars, but only 20% of the levels considered to be dangerous and unsafe.

You seem to be spreading unwarranted FUD again, Plant.

I just did some research on Google.

First, that 20% level for Tesla is only at floor level. Think about it. The batteries are under the floor. The levels rapidly fall as you go higher, and are tiny by the time you get to head (i.e. brain) level.

There are only two modes of danger from EMF cited, according to various physicists and scientific organizations (i.e. not random bloggers).

For non-ionizing radiation (for things like EV's, below the level of things like x-rays, i.e. very high energy radiation), the only harmful mode is burning.

So unless you are going to claim you're going to be slowly "cooked" by a Tesla battery as you drive, there is no realistic chance of meaningful harm from a Tesla battery.

And, BTW, regular ICE cars have some significant EMF, compared to the typical EV's. Are you worried about magnetic fields from your ICE?

http://www.emfandhealth.com/EMFExplained.html

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/tra ... t-kill-you

https://www.nwo-i.nl/en/personnel/worki ... radiation/

There has been various, mostly reasoned, discussion of this on multiple Tesla forums for years. Of course, the discussions are inconsistent, but they reach conclusions that are fairly consistent with the scientific consensus.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 21:32:34

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:An EU funded study found that EMFs in EVs were typically about twice those found in ICE cars, but only 20% of the levels considered to be dangerous and unsafe.

You seem to be spreading unwarranted FUD again, Plant.


Hardly. If you are afraid of facts I can't really help you. The facts are the facts.

Everything I posted is factual and everything is referenced with a link to the source. The data you are concerned about comes directly from an EU funded scientific study of EMF hazards associated with EVs, linked in my post.


Outcast_Searcher wrote:that 20% level for Tesla is only at floor level. Think about it. The batteries are under the floor. The levels rapidly fall as you go higher, and are tiny by the time you get to head (i.e. brain) level.


True enough, but think a little more about this as well.. There is more to you then just your head. Your feet are part of you. Your feet are attached to your body. Consider this also---your feet contain blood, bones, lymph nodes and other biologic material just like the rest of your body.

If there is a cancer hazard or other health hazard involved with being exposed to EMFs, then it doesn't make much sense to ignore the fact that your feet (i.e. the skin, blood, bones, etc. of your feet) are being bathed in a moderate EMF every second you are driving an EV.

Finally, consider this fact. The World Health Organization (WHO) reports that "A number of epidemiological studies suggest small increases in risk of childhood leukemia with exposure to low frequency magnetic fields"

WHO-What-is-EMF

Leukemia is cancer of the blood. I hate to bring this to your attention, but according to the WHO, EMFs are KNOWN CARCINOGENS. They cause a higher incidence of Leukemia and may be implicated in other health problems. Those are the facts.

Now, I hope you will agree with me that there is actually blood in your feet (where scientists report the largest EMFs occur in EVs), and that very same blood travels to your heart, lungs, brain, etc. If EMFs cause an increase in leukemia (blood cancer), as the World Health Organization states, then perhaps the effects of sticking your feet, blood and all, into a moderate EMF whenever you drive an EV is a topic should be a matter of concern.

Cheers!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 23:01:00

You know the solution: protective aluminium head gear. Never leave home without it.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby baha » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 05:08:40

Plantagenet you are right. There is a danger in EM fields that we have no understanding of. I will say it is frequency dependent. DC only causes fields when there is current. AC radiates fields all the time. The higher the frequency of the field the easier it penetrates your body. Heat is an EM field that you only feel on the surface. X-rays go all the way thru. The damage done is dependent on the strength of the field and how far it penetrates.

These are serious issues that we don't understand. Again, we don't know what causes Autism. But fields can be eliminated completely with a grounded faraday cage.

Or, as Pstarr said, a tinfoil hat :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 11:08:09

baha wrote: EM fields can be eliminated completely with ... a tinfoil hat


If that works for you, then go for it.

Cheers! :lol:

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 11:58:53

Plantagenet wrote:Now, I hope you will agree with me that there is actually blood in your feet (where scientists report the largest EMFs occur in EVs), and that very same blood travels to your heart, lungs, brain, etc. If EMFs cause an increase in leukemia (blood cancer), as the World Health Organization states, then perhaps the effects of sticking your feet, blood and all, into a moderate EMF whenever you drive an EV is a topic should be a matter of concern.

Cheers!

You're a pedantic who loves to distort things for entertainment. This makes you fit in well with the doomer crowd, but doesn't do much for the EV discussion.

1). Here's a summary quote from the WHO web page "What are electromagnetic fields" on the health effects of low level (non-ionizing) EMF. THIS IS THE SAME PAGE YOU WERE CITING.

Conclusions from scientific research
In the area of biological effects and medical applications of non-ionizing radiation approximately 25,000 articles have been published over the past 30 years. Despite the feeling of some people that more research needs to be done, scientific knowledge in this area is now more extensive than for most chemicals. Based on a recent in-depth review of the scientific literature, the WHO concluded that current evidence does not confirm the existence of any health consequences from exposure to low level electromagnetic fields. However, some gaps in knowledge about biological effects exist and need further research.


http://www.who.int/peh-emf/about/Whatis ... ndex1.html

Now, if you're going to play word games with the gaps I highlighted in red, feel free. However, that's not a credible threat for leukemia risk.

If you're worried about it, wear tinfoil shoes if you drive a Tesla.

2). If you can find a definitive statement from a CREDIBLE source that it is known that non-ionizing radiation (like the kind produced by EV's, via every source I've found) is KNOWN to produce cancer, feel free to share.

Meanwhile, you can easily Google lots of medical sources that flatly state that there is no evidence that non-ionizing EMF radiation causes cancer.

3). As I've said, the other medical risk from low level EMF is burns. Perhaps your tinfoil shoes would help radiate the heat and keep your feet from burning as well, if you drive a Tesla.

However, oddly enough, I know of no credible complaints about people getting burned (feet or otherwise) from the Tesla's EMF's when driving their Tesla.

But keep posting constant nonsense. After all, that's what the "ignore" list is for.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 15:50:10

Outcast_Searcher wrote:... WHO concluded ... some gaps in knowledge about biological effects exist and need further research.


Sure. Thats exactly what I'm saying.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:.... not a credible threat for leukemia risk.


Now you are posting fabrications. Based on their review of multiple independent studies WHO states there is an increased risk of a particularly virulent variety of leukemia associated with EMF exposure.

Outcast_Searcher wrote: If you can find a definitive statement from a CREDIBLE source that it is known that non-ionizing radiation (like the kind produced by EV's, via every source I've found) is KNOWN to produce cancer, feel free to share.


I already did. How about the World Health Organisation? Do you find them to be credible? In my post above I quoted the recent review by the World Health Organisation (WHO) that started that EMFs are associated with an increase in certain kinds of leukemia. I'll repeat that quote for you here:

The World Health Organization (WHO) reports that "A number of epidemiological studies suggest small increases in risk of childhood leukemia with exposure to low frequency magnetic fields"

Here are some individual papers from the scientific literature that WHO surveyed showing EMFS cause leukemia:

[1] - Ahlbom, Anders; Elisabeth Cardis, Adele Green, Martha Linet, David Savitz, Anthony Swerdlow (December 2001). "Review of the Epidemiologic Literature on EMF and Health". Environ Health Perspect. 109 (S6) - [View abstract]

[2] - Draper, Gerald; Tim Vincent, Mary E. Kroll, John Swanson (2005). "Childhood cancer in relation to distance from high voltage power lines in England and Wales: a case-control study". BMJ (330). DOI:10.1136/bmj.330.7503.1290. - [View Abstract]

[3] - Fews, Peter; Denis Henshaw, Paul Keitch, Julie Close, Richard Wilding (December 1999). "Increased exposure to pollutant aerosols under high voltage power lines". Int J Radiat Biol. 75 (12): 1505-21. - [View Abstract]

[4] -Fews, Peter; Denis Henshaw, Richard Wilding, Paul Keitch (December 1999). "Corona ions from powerlines and increased exposure to pollutant aerosols". Int J Radiat Biol. 75 (12): 1523-31. - [View Abstract]

Outcast_Searcher wrote:... tinfoil shoes .....tinfoil shoes


Do you really think that people should wear "tinfoil shoes" to protect them from leukemia, or is that some kind of a joke? Childhood leukemia is highly virulent and its nothing to joke about. Some of the epidemiological studies suggest that exposure to EMFs roughly DOUBLE the risk for children getting leukemia, while others find lower but still significant risks. The WHO, inr reviewing all these studies, said there is a small increases in risk of childhood leukemia with exposure to low frequency magnetic fields. The facts are clear here--- there are multiple peer-reviewed scientific studies that show this link. Clearly more research on this topic is needed, but in the interim I don't think the families of children who died from leukemia after exposure to EMFs would find your joke about the protective qualities of "tinfoil shoes" to be very amusing.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 16:18:28

Here's another study showing a significant increase in childhood leukemia amoung children who live near power lines and are exposed to low level EMFs for long periods of time.

child-leukemia-again-linked-to-power-lines-EMFs

"Living near high-voltage power lines raises children's risk of leukemia by 69%, a British study shows."

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 21:40:26

I see we'll now have to withstand weeks if not months of daily EMF doom from Plantagenet until some new source of fear/outrage takes precedence. He really is OCD, isn't he? Just locks onto one thing and grinds away on it, like he did with the Trump Russia investigation.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 00:13:41

asg70 wrote:I see we'll now have to withstand weeks if not months of daily EMF doom from Plantagenet until some new source of fear/outrage takes precedence. He really is OCD, isn't he? Just locks onto one thing and grinds away on it, like he did with the Trump Russia investigation.


I see we'll now have to withstand weeks if not months of daily EV boosterism from asg70 until some new source of pollyanna utopianism takes precedence. He really is OCD, isn't he? Just locks onto one thing and grinds away on it, like he did with the Trump Russia investigation.

Cheers! :lol:

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 09:53:18

Plantagenet wrote:daily EV boosterism from asg70 until some new source of pollyanna utopianism takes precedence.


Ah, and so the truth comes out. The doom must flow, eh?

BTW, it's called news, not boosterism. You know, stuff actually happening outside of the doomer echo-chamber.

I just checked google news and there's no shortage of EV news from reputable (no zerohedge) sources. Here's the first thing that popped up recently.

The Future Of Electric Vehicles In The U.S., Part 1: 65%-75% New Light-Duty Vehicle Sales By 2050

Note the included S curve chart that starts to take off around 2025. This is what us "pollyannas" have been talking about. It's the Seba presentation, just with a more protracted (i.e. realistic) schedule.

And a followup from today:

The Future Of Electric Vehicles In The U.S., Part 2: EV Price, Oil Cost, Fuel Economy Drive Adoption

So you're telling me we should just treat this coverage as fake-news and double-down on doom?

You have to literally have your head in the sand to disregard the signals pointing towards S-curve adoption. No, it's not happening immediately, but the pieces are moving into position. It will happen and industry experts know it and are starting to act accordingly (like VW).
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 11:00:24

asg70 wrote:

I just checked google news and there's no shortage of EV news from reputable (no zerohedge) sources. Here's the first thing that popped up recently.

The Future Of Electric Vehicles In The U.S., Part 1: 65%-75% New Light-Duty Vehicle Sales By 2050

Note the included S curve chart that starts to take off around 2025. This is what us "pollyannas" have been talking about. It's the Seba presentation, just with a more protracted (i.e. realistic) schedule.

And a followup from today:

The Future Of Electric Vehicles In The U.S., Part 2: EV Price, Oil Cost, Fuel Economy Drive Adoption

... we should just treat this coverage as fake-news and double-down on doom?


What strange ideas you have :lol:

Why would you suggest treating actual bona fide good news about positive predictions for future sales of EVs as "fake news?"

Especially if it comes from a reputable MSM news outlet like Forbes?

Clearly the world is turning to EVs now. Not only Tesla but all the major auto manufacturers are making big efforts on the EV sides. Many countries are making governmental commitments to regulate their auto markets to promote and favor EVs.

Please rethink your sarcastic suggestion that all this momentum towards EVs is just "fake news"

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Its a fact---EV sales are projected to explode globally

Cheers!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GASMON » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 11:53:40

Forget the cars for the moment - answers needed for these questions.

Peak time being (in the UK) between 5pm and 8pm on a freezing cold, still mid winters night. During this time most folks come home from work, cook, watch TV, warm the house and (will in future) - RAPID CHARGE THE EV !!!

EV Rapid charge - whats the current ?, can a household supply provide it ALONG with other loads (cooking, heating etc) at peak times ? The average UK home has a 100A main fuse. Shower 50A, Cooker 30A, it all adds up quickly

Can an average street cabling supply the current needed for each house having one or more EV's on charge at peak times, along with other loads ?

Can the average local electric distribution transformer & cabling systems cope with these constantly rising loads ?

Can the Grid cope with all of the above ?

Can the power stations cope with all of the above (given we in the UK are phasing out coal very quickly) ?

It's not just a matter of the vehicle. If the world goes all electric, then the world's electricity systems will require mega investment also.

I am a gas engineer (retired) - The above are engineering questions that I can't answer. BUT I forsee the problems.

I reckon the electric car revolution is finished before it starts.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 12:10:33

GASMON wrote:It's not just a matter of the vehicle. If the world goes all electric, then the world's electricity systems will require mega investment also.

I am a gas engineer (retired) - The above are engineering questions that I can't answer. BUT I forsee the problems.

89I reckon the electric car revolution is finished before it starts.
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Can the system do it tomorrow? Clearly not?

Can it do it in 20 to 50 years with proper planning, as EV's scale up? I don''t see why not, if the profit motive is there. It's not like major changes haven't happened over time before IF the profit motive supports them.

Now, if this Tony Seba predicted S-curve thing happens in the next 10 years and suddenly in 15 years we're looking at 80% EV penetration or something, that seems like a big strain on the system. (I don't think that scenario of Tony Seba is at ALL probable in the fast timeframe he predicts -- too many assumptions, like broad access to cheap FULLY autonomous EV's by 2021 which only seems likely in aggressive marketing claims).

But your questions seem skewed to some extent. For example, WHY is fast charging required at rush hour for the masses? First, for most, cheap, convenient overnight charging is fine at 240V at home.

Second, for commuters, if EV shortages at peak hours end up being a thing, then there will be strong pricing incentives to do charging off hours. For normal commuters aside from long distance ones, they don't need to charge every day. And, if they can save money, they will do it off-peak.

...

There seems to be an awful lot of "it's not this way today, so it can NEVER be" around here. Given the way things change, that is a mighty unrealistic attitude.

I'm not saying the transition will be easy (much less automatic) or quick. I'm just saying that claiming the EV revolution is done before it starts seems completely over the top to me (especially, as it continues).

Oh, and apparently there WILL be mega investment in green electricity in coming decades by both individuals (i.e. solar roofs and battery systems) and industry. So I don't see the big problem there.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GASMON » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 13:22:22

Solar panels won't charge a car anywhere nearly quick - barely light a few bulbs !

Pricing incentives = electricity costs more at peak hours = smart meters. SIMPLE

Green electricity helps, but it won't supply base load on a freezing, still (NO WIND !!) winters night.

Rapid chargers needed at places of work, service stations etc - huge NEW loads / infrastructure requirements there. Who pays for the infrastructure, everybody who uses electricity ? - Unfair to the many without a vehicle.

Also look around you at the average age of autos in use today. Most folks can't afford a new or nearly new petrol / diesel car, let alone an electric one. secondhand EV's a no no due to battery replacement costs ?

I had a quick ride in a Nissan Leaf the other week. Nice car, quiet, fast. Showed 57 miles charge remaining, went about 1 mile, friend booted it to show the "impressive" performance, back home (after 1 mile) range showed 52 miles - Impressed - NOT.

Overnight trickle charging just tops up the battery. For serious EV use most folks will rapid charge, so the vehicle is (mostly) "always" available.

The problems are just starting.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 13:26:15

Plantagenet wrote:Its a fact---EV sales are projected to explode globally


Thanks for conceding.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GHung » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 13:31:18

Gas said; "Solar panels won't charge a car anywhere nearly quick - barely light a few bulbs !"

Gosh, Gas, you're really out of touch, or maybe it's just a UK thing. My inverters can put out over 30 amps at 240 volts and barely get warm. My total system rating is over 10kW (7kW+ PV rating) and could easily be expanded.

That's a lot of light bulbs.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 13:37:46

GASMON wrote:Can the Grid cope with all of the above ?


I see these sorts of arguments again and again.

This is a huge industrial shift, similar to the build-out of rail and then the build-out of cars.

The reason the Model T rode high on wagon wheels and had a low top speed, for instance, is that most roads were little more than muddy dirt roads. So the Model T is like a low-speed SUV.

If you were to go back then you'd have a hard time imagining how we could reach the point we are now where you can drive at 65+ MPH coast-to-coast without hitting a pothole.

What about telephones? It took many decades for the whole country to be wired up with telephone service...or electricity for that matter. Think of how many millions of telephone poles had to be erected and strung out into the midwest.

How about something more recent?

How about the rollout of broadband or cell-phone towers? 2G->3G->4G?

You know what drives all of this stuff?

If enough people buy into something that requires infrastructure, then the infrastructure automagically materializes. The money is there because of the influx of consumer cash.

You can't look at the world as is now and ask whether you can instantly drop millions of EVs onto the roads and expect the existing system to support them because it's not how any of these technological shifts ever happen. Things will gradually shift in lock-step with demand. So you're arguing from a position of complete ignorance of history.

These shifts happen with little fanfare. It's a gradual thing. For instance, my town has never had gas service. But now thanks to the fracking boom, I'm seeing pipe laid all around town, presumably for natural gas. The same probably happened 10-20 years ago to lay fiber (our town has FIOS). These things just happen. I do not know the combination of zoning and industrial processes that make these projects go, but they happen. It's the invisible hand of the market.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GHung » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 13:47:26

asg70 wrote:
GASMON wrote:Can the Grid cope with all of the above ?


I see these sorts of arguments again and again.

This is a huge industrial shift, similar to the build-out of rail and then the build-out of cars.

The reason the Model T rode high on wagon wheels and had a low top speed, for instance, is that most roads were little more than muddy dirt roads. So the Model T is like a low-speed SUV.

If you were to go back then you'd have a hard time imagining how we could reach the point we are now where you can drive at 65+ MPH coast-to-coast without hitting a pothole.

What about telephones? It took many decades for the whole country to be wired up with telephone service...or electricity for that matter. Think of how many millions of telephone poles had to be erected and strung out into the midwest.

How about something more recent?

How about the rollout of broadband or cell-phone towers? 2G->3G->4G?

You know what drives all of this stuff?

If enough people buy into something that requires infrastructure, then the infrastructure automagically materializes. The money is there because of the influx of consumer cash.

You can't look at the world as is now and ask whether you can instantly drop millions of EVs onto the roads and expect the existing system to support them because it's not how any of these technological shifts ever happen. Things will gradually shift in lock-step with demand. So you're arguing from a position of complete ignorance of history.

These shifts happen with little fanfare. It's a gradual thing. For instance, my town has never had gas service. But now thanks to the fracking boom, I'm seeing pipe laid all around town, presumably for natural gas. The same probably happened 10-20 years ago to lay fiber (our town has FIOS). These things just happen. I do not know the combination of zoning and industrial processes that make these projects go, but they happen. It's the invisible hand of the market.


A very similar circumstance was when the southern US discovered air conditioning. Atlanta was growing quickly and most new homes had AC, along with people installing it in older homes. I remember when we finally got air conditioning in the late 60s we had to have a larger panel installed (doubled to 200 amp service). Development down the street required the power company to up the voltage of the distribution lines and everyone had new transformers installed.

Of course, this was during our economy's growth stage, but I have no doubt Big Energy will want to sell more kWhs these days, if they can find them.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby GASMON » Mon 18 Sep 2017, 13:48:11

GHung wrote:Gas said; "Solar panels won't charge a car anywhere nearly quick - barely light a few bulbs !"

Gosh, Gas, you're really out of touch, or maybe it's just a UK thing. My inverters can put out over 30 amps at 240 volts and barely get warm. My total system rating is over 10kW (7kW+ PV rating) and could easily be expanded.

That's a lot of light bulbs.


30 amps at 240 volts - fine. What size is your installation ? Just interested.

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