Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 20:05:49

kublikhan wrote: ICE vehicles .... No power, no electricity to pump gas.


Actually, thats not true.

Military convoys and relief convoys and even local police departments and fire departments commonly have the capability to bring their own gas with them when they deploy. Its pretty common for the National Guard and even local government agencies to bring gas in to disaster spots in tanker trucks----and the engine in the tanker generates all they electricity they need to pump the gas, even when the power grid is down.

Image
We're the local Fire Dept. Would you like some gas? The pumps are in the back.

Cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20378
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 20:27:51

Plantagenet wrote:Actually, thats not true.

Military convoys and relief convoys commonly bring their own gas with them when they deploy. Its pretty common for the National Guard to bring gas in to disaster spots in tanker trucks----and the engine in the tanker generates all they electricity they need to pump the gas, even when the power grid is down.
Drop in the bucket. Insufficient for the millions across the state who need gas.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:As if in 20 years or so most (or nearly all) houses won't have solar roofs, and be able to do some charging to get by while the grid is down, to do things like get groceries or supplies.
Check it out:

Anyone building a new house in South Miami — or in some cases renovating existing ones — will have to install solar panels after the city commission approved a groundbreaking law Tuesday night. The measure, the first of its kind in Florida, will go into effect in two months on Sept 18.

South Miami Mayor Philip Stoddard, a biology professor at Florida International University, has championed this measure. His entire home runs on solar and he drives an electric car. His monthly electric bill is about $10.
New homes will now require solar panels in South Miami, a first in Florida

Lancaster was the first city in California to require solar systems be installed in all new construction. The prevalent sun and heat have made solar systems a palatable choice for many residents. Santa Monica recently approved an ordinance making rooftop solar systems mandatory for all new construction and major renovations. It joins a growing number of cities in California that are making solar mandates in pursuit of energy efficiency and reductions in carbon emissions. San Francisco is set to begin a similar mandate in 2017.
The sun is rising on mandatory solar roofs

The California Senate Majority Leader Kevin de León has introduced a new bill that would mandate the Golden State get all of its electricity from renewable sources by 2045. What has not been widely discussed in the press – and buried in the details of the bill – is that all new homes and all homes sold must have solar panels as their source of energy. All apartment buildings with more than four units must install solar panels by 2025, and all commercial and office buildings must do the same. As for farms, they must commit 25% of their acreage to windmills.
California Requires Solar Panels on All Homes and Windmills on All Farms
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3977
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 21:46:35

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Endless FUD isn't going to make EV's go away, when they prove to be more economical and less polluting (via green electricity) than ICE's. But keep throwing things at the wall. Something may occasionally stick.


Funny how he presumes to care about global warming while bashing EVs. Must have something to do with Alaska being a petro-state. The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 00:08:42

asg70 wrote:
Funny how he presumes to care about global warming while bashing EVs.


Your reading comprehension is very poor.

I haven't bashed EVs once.

I have criticized Tesla not over their EVs, but over their idiotic policy of intentionally degrading the performance of some of their EVs.

Think about it----shouldn't TESLA be building the greatest EVs they can, rather then intentionally making some of their EVs worse?

Cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20378
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 03:47:09

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Plus, I'm not sure if they even do this anymore. The only models available are 75 and 100 packs. It was an experimental idea and not the wisest one, not because it was anti-consumer but because the biggest overhead in making an EV is the pack and there's no reason to ship a larger pack to consumers that may never get used if they never pay for the unlock.

BTW, you've been reminded by some of the more senior members here that you DID bash EVs in the past, suggesting that their EMF causes cancer. So your memory capacity is impaired. And you're now expanding on your Tesla-hate with FUD over the semi in another thread. You're not fooling anyone.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 10:50:56

asg70 wrote: It was an experimental idea and not the wisest one, not because it was anti-consumer but because the biggest overhead in making an EV is the pack and there's no reason to ship a larger pack to consumers that may never get used if they never pay for the unlock.


Yes. Thats exactly what I've been saying about Tesla's odd practice of degrading the quality of their own products. Glad you finally figured it out.

Now try to figure out the the difference between "bashing" EVs and discussing scientific and medical research about EVs, and you'll be almost up to speed. There is no question but that high levels of EMFs can be emitted by electric motors, batteries the charging apparatus, etc. on a Tesla. Some studies show high EMF levels in the passenger compartment, particularly around people waists---not that you've got anything in that area to worry about. Proven link to cancer...no? Cause for concern...maybe.

see high EMF levels being measured in a charging Tesla

Cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20378
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby hvacman » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 16:31:02

The Chevy Volt (an EV with a built-in backup engine-generator) evolved from an idea that GM's engineers had when testing the EV-1 back in the 1990's - they put a gas generator in a trailer and towed it along so they could just keep driving without worrying about "bricking" somewhere on the highway. I believe there are some trailer/generator packages out now targeting the EV market specifically to offer that "brick-proof" contingency for emergency situations. As EVs evolve and become more mainstream, these contingency issues in emergency situations will be sorted out and solutions found.

On the flip side, your EV can BE your best friend in an extended power outage. It can be the backup power supply at your house. There are already kits out that hook up an inverter to the 12 VDC battery in most EV's. They will provide about 1 kW of power for as long as your main EV battery has a charge and can keep feeding power to the 12 VDC battery. With something like a 60 kWh Bolt or 100 kWh Tesla, that would be 60-100 hours worth of power to keep the fridge and a few lights going. Or the very-important sump pump to keep the basement from flooding. No engine to run. No gas required. Just hook up to go.

EV's have pros and they have cons for various situations. So do ICE vehicles.
hvacman
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun 01 Dec 2013, 12:19:53

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 16:35:03

Plantagenet wrote:There is no question but that high levels of EMFs can be emitted by electric motors


Do you have a cell phone? Do you hold it up to your ear? Do you hold a laptop--in your lap? Got cognitive dissonance? Want to live by your FUD? Go step away from your computer and live in an igloo up there. Until then, STFU.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 17:22:03

asg70 wrote:Do you have a cell phone? Do you hold it up to your ear? Do you hold a laptop--in your lap? Want to live by your FUD?


Why so angry? Is there something in my post you didn't understand?

The facts here are pretty straight forward. Electric motors emit EMFs. When you've got multiple electric motors like those in Teslas you're going to have stronger EMFs .

Its pretty basic physics, as.

The EMF values measured around TESLAs are about two orders of magnitude LARGER then those associated with ICE cars. Is that significant? Shouldn't we find out?


asg70 wrote:Go step away from your computer and live in an igloo up there. Until then, STFU.


Now you're just being a troll with a potty mouth.

This site is about people talking to each about all sorts of things. If you disagree about whats in a post then I suggest you talk about it rather then trying to order other people around. When you see a post with some science in it that you don't understand, just ask about it. Most people here will glad to explain things to you.

Cheers!

Image
Add EVs to the list of things that emit EMFs

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20378
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 21:25:55

Plantagenet wrote:Is that significant? Shouldn't we find out?


We already are. If your concerns are correct, long before anyone dies of EMF emitted from cars they'll be croaking from brain cancer from cell phones.

Plantagenet wrote:If you disagree about whats in a post then I suggest you talk about it rather then trying to order other people around.


Yes, reasonable discussion, as I can see you've demonstrated through the years on this site in your constant obsession with Obama and posting cheap political cartoons. Please keep your patronizing to yourself.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 03:56:36

The possible side affects from EMF radiation from electric vehicles is nothing when compared to the noxious gasses that are emitted from the exhausts of every ICE vehicle out there.

With suitable shielding, there are no risks at all, unlike the exhaust gases from ICE vehicles.
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
User avatar
dolanbaker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 09:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 12:26:08

Reminds me of when I lived near Denver. I lived in the foothills at 8500 feet. I drove down into Denver to go to work. As I came down the last hill and into the bowl that is the city, I could always smell a faint whiff of diesel or jet exhaust. I was in the Air Force, I know that smell.

After a few minutes it would go away. I knew it was because you get used to it. I would think to myself 'you city folks are breathing this shit all the time' If you only knew...

BTW - I could have easily charged a Tesla half full just driving to work. It was 12 miles as steep as they make it.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 12:31:35

dolanbaker wrote:The possible side affects from EMF radiation from electric vehicles is nothing when compared to the noxious gasses that are emitted from the exhausts of every ICE vehicle out there.

With suitable shielding, there are no risks at all, unlike the exhaust gases from ICE vehicles.

Actually, the word on this isn't final yet.

First, as Baha correctly pointed out, if there were a BIG problem, then clearly measurable problems with the brains of teenagers with cell phones practically glued to their ear would have become evident by now (as they age).

However, last time I checked, Consumer Reports had verified that EMF does have an impact on living tissue. They were careful to point out that we don't know what that MEANS yet -- i.e. if this can create a statistically meaningful amount of disease like, say, brain tumors.

Supposedly the cell phone industry has been studying this -- but given how poorly they handle security issues for consumers (i.e. hackers are using fooling cell phone companies into switching phone numbers without properly verifying the request with the actual phone owner -- I have a friend that this happened to with our local carrier, Windstream -- they almost got $70K from his HELOC due to that), let's just say I don't TRUST whatever results they get without independent confirmation from a disinterested source.

So it's probably OK, but we aren't sure yet. A quick Google search shows the range of opinions is still wide. Blogging crackpots claiming EMF "gave me cancer in 3 weeks", to cancer.gov saying no mechanism is known for non-ionizing EMF to damage DNA and cause cancer.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 3882
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 12:40:19

I am very sensitive to high frequency noise. I notice after spending the day outside in the woods that my ears start ringing when I get home. Is it the silence I have had all day that makes me hear it? Or is it something you get used to and don't notice after a while?

Can you remember when Sears had TV displays with 50 CRTs running at the same time? OK, I'm old...I could not walk into the area. My head would split open from the ringing.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 12:57:05

baha wrote:I am very sensitive to high frequency noise. I notice after spending the day outside in the woods that my ears start ringing when I get home. Is it the silence I have had all day that makes me hear it? Or is it something you get used to and don't notice after a while?

Can you remember when Sears had TV displays with 50 CRTs running at the same time? OK, I'm old...I could not walk into the area. My head would split open from the ringing.

Not to disagree with you, because I don't know. But I do know that ringing in the ears can have various causes -- and it is something that gets more common as we age.

My dad wore a hearing aid once he got to be 75-ih, partly because the ringing got too persistent.

I have noticed over the past 5 years that when it's quiet, at random, I'll get ringing for 30 seconds to perhaps 5 minutes -- for no reason I can discern. I'm 58. This was EXTREMELY rare before 5 years ago.

My doctor tells me I have great hearing range for my age, perhaps partly because I attended exactly only one really loud rock concert in my life (Pink Floyd -- and I heard what sounded like crickets for hours afterwards).
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 3882
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 15:27:59

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:The possible side affects from EMF radiation from electric vehicles is nothing when compared to the noxious gasses that are emitted from the exhausts of every ICE vehicle out there.

With suitable shielding, there are no risks at all, unlike the exhaust gases from ICE vehicles.

Actually, the word on this isn't final yet.

First, as Baha correctly pointed out, if there were a BIG problem, then clearly measurable problems with the brains of teenagers with cell phones practically glued to their ear would have become evident by now (as they age).

However, last time I checked, Consumer Reports had verified that EMF does have an impact on living tissue. They were careful to point out that we don't know what that MEANS yet -- i.e. if this can create a statistically meaningful amount of disease like, say, brain tumors.

Supposedly the cell phone industry has been studying this -- but given how poorly they handle security issues for consumers (i.e. hackers are using fooling cell phone companies into switching phone numbers without properly verifying the request with the actual phone owner -- I have a friend that this happened to with our local carrier, Windstream -- they almost got $70K from his HELOC due to that), let's just say I don't TRUST whatever results they get without independent confirmation from a disinterested source.

So it's probably OK, but we aren't sure yet. A quick Google search shows the range of opinions is still wide. Blogging crackpots claiming EMF "gave me cancer in 3 weeks", to cancer.gov saying no mechanism is known for non-ionizing EMF to damage DNA and cause cancer.


I'm referring to the EMF from EVs, not mobiles.
The EMF from a mobile phone is significant due to the face that it is a telecommunications device, it's supposed to generate an EMF field. It is usually transmitting within millimetres from the user's brain.

The electrics on an EV on the other hand are shielded and designed not to transmit energy, so pose no realistic risk, unless you're in the habit of removing shielding and resting your head on the control unit while driving!
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
User avatar
dolanbaker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 09:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 18:46:32

An EU funded study found that EMFs in EVs were typically about twice those found in ICE cars, but only 20% of the levels considered to be dangerous and unsafe.

EMF-health-electric-cars

That sounds great until you think about it for a second. We know EMFs are dangerous---thats why there the EU and EPA set limits on the level of EMFs you should be exposed to.

We know EVs emit EMFs at 20% of the danger level. That means that if the EMFs fields in EVs were five times greater even a few seconds to minutes of exposure would be considered dangerous.

But in an EV you are exposed to 20% of the dangerous level for EMFs for what can be a very long period of time.

AND There are no standards for the DURATION of exposure to EMFs--. People who commute in EVS are being to EMFs for 1-2 hours a day---EVERY WORK DAY.

And if you drive longer distances in an EV you get more and more exposure to EMFs. Lets say someone drove an EV from central Alaska to Anchorage, where the only TESLA charger in the state is located. That trip would take about 6-7 hours. That would be 6-7 HOURS of exposure to EMFs.

Is it dangerous? Well, if even a few seconds of exposure to a certain level of EMF is dangerous, then are hours of exposure to 20% of that level of EMF perfectly OK?

Thats the question that is still unresolved.

Cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20378
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 19:15:29

From your link:

* Clean bill of health for electric cars
* comprehensive research conducted over the course of three years, the EM-Safety project has reached the conclusion that the electromagnetic fields (EMFs) in electric cars are well within the safety limits
* The partners also studied the biological effects of the EMFs observed in electric vehicles. “We used the magnetic field exposure in the frequency area observed in the electric cars, and from these cell studies we couldn’t see any negative effects”
* While EM-Safety was not the first project of its kind, says Vogl, it was particularly comprehensive, covering a wide range of cars and combining the findings with biological knowledge and engineering guidance.
For a second there I thought you might just be spreading FUD about EVs. But then you link to this study that gives EVs a clean bill of health with the most comprehensive study of it's kind. Thanks Plant! Good to know this is nothing to worry about. Now that you axed that worry, we can concentrate on the known ICE dangers:

Just when you thought it was safe to breathe, a pair of studies underscore the grave threat that air pollution poses to public health.
Air pollution from cars claims more than 58,000 lives in the U.S. every year, according to new research from MIT. Vehicle emissions caused more deaths than any other category of polluter.

Meanwhile, the World Health Organization recently added air pollution to its list of carcinogens. The WHO’s determination comes from experts at its International Agency for Research on Cancer, who, after reviewing thousands of studies, concluded air pollution could be linked to both lung and bladder cancer. “The air most people breathe has become polluted with a complicated mixture of cancer-causing substances,” Kurt Straif of the IARC told the Associated Press. He added that the WHO now considers air pollution “the most important environmental carcinogen.”
MIT Study: Vehicle Emissions Cause 58,000 Premature Deaths Yearly in U.S.

Air pollution is the second fastest-growing causes of death in the world. In 2010 3.2 million died prematurely due to air pollution – compared to 800,000 air pollution deaths reported in 2000. Air pollution is everywhere and there are a variety of culprits. However, the study found that it was specifically the type of air pollution caused by car and truck exhaust that are doing the most damage. Promoting electric vehicles (EV) would be the first step in healing this global problem.
Car Exhaust: The World’s Second Fastest Growing Cause Of Death
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3977
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 19:29:10

kublikhan wrote:For a second there I thought you might just be spreading FUD about EVs. But then you link to this study that gives EVs a clean bill of health with the most comprehensive study of it's kind. Thanks Plant!


No problemo.

You post shows why it pays to actually read the posts here instead of going off half-cocked. Good for you, Kulikhan.

kublikhan wrote: WHO now considers air pollution “the most important environmental carcinogen.”
MIT Study: Vehicle Emissions Cause 58,000 Premature Deaths Yearly in U.S.

Air pollution is the second fastest-growing causes of death in the world. In 2010 3.2 million died prematurely due to air pollution – compared to 800,000 air pollution deaths reported in 2000. Air pollution is everywhere and there are a variety of culprits. However, the study found that it was specifically the type of air pollution caused by car and truck exhaust that are doing the most damage. Promoting electric vehicles (EV) would be the first step in healing this global problem.
Car Exhaust: The World’s Second Fastest Growing Cause Of Death[/quote]

Yup. This is exactly why its so dumb to power EVs with electricity from coal-fired power plants like they do in Germany, China, India, etc. You've still got the CO2 emissions and pollution, just from a centralized source rather then from the individual tailpipes.

Even here in the US there is still a significant coal contribute to the US power grid. And those that have shifted from coal to natural gas aren't much better----NG is even worse for Greenhouse Warming then Coal or gasoline are.

Cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20378
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 19:59:44

A gas powered car will remain a gas powered car for its entire useful life.

An EV is powered with whatever you choose to power it with.

So Plant, if you care so much about the environment maybe go on some environmental marches and pressure Trump. Of course, you were just defending Trump in another thread against the Russian investigation, so I think your sympathies are clear, not to mention your bragging about Alaska's oil-fueled rainy-day-fund. So I really don't know why you speak as if you give a rat's ass about CO2 emissions. You're in no position to judge.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests