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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 13 Sep 2017, 18:46:28

vtsnowedin wrote:Apparently the purchaser of the car pays all the bills but the company retains control of it's performance throughout it's life. That might fly in China and Russia and perhaps even in the UK but wont last a day in Texas or in any of the Red states in the US.


It doesn't look like you are going to have a choice.

TPTB, in country after country, are lining up to ban ICE engines by about 2030. Its looking like come 2031 it will be illegal to sell cars with internal combustion engines --- so the only option will be to buy yourself an EV.

if-you-cant-beat-em-ban-em]

Country after country pledges to ban ICE engines by ca. 2030.

Cheers!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 13 Sep 2017, 20:08:57

Many of the bans only ban pure gasoline/diesel cars. Meaning hybrids will still be allowed.

What's the difference between electrified and electric cars?

These countries want to ditch gas and diesel cars
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 13 Sep 2017, 20:32:27

Plantagenet wrote:Wouldn't it be simpler for TESLA to simply let people use the full capability of the cars they've purchased without degrading their performance? Especially in an emergency?

Cheers!


I agree that people should have the option to override the battery software and draw the battery down further than Tesla would like them to. However, the software could record this and too much use of this feature would be grounds for Tesla voiding the warranty on the battery.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 13 Sep 2017, 21:36:29

yellowcanoe wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Wouldn't it be simpler for TESLA to simply let people use the full capability of the cars they've purchased without degrading their performance? Especially in an emergency?

Cheers!


I agree that people should have the option to override the battery software and draw the battery down further than Tesla would like them to. However, the software could record this and too much use of this feature would be grounds for Tesla voiding the warranty on the battery.


The good news is that the batteries in cheaper Teslas are actually exactly the same battery as those put in the more expensive models. The only thing restricting range on the cheaper Teslas is Tesla---they are intentionally degrading the performance of their own batteries to make them crappier.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 13 Sep 2017, 22:50:33

Plantagenet wrote:The good news is that the batteries in cheaper Teslas are actually exactly the same battery as those put in the more expensive models. The only thing restricting range on the cheaper Teslas is Tesla---they are intentionally degrading the performance of their own batteries to make them crappier.

Cheers!


The cheaper Tesla's are targeting a different market than the older, more expensive models. A long battery life is much more important to people buying the cheaper Tesla's than it is to those buying the more expensive, high performance models.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 13 Sep 2017, 23:40:57

Plantagenet wrote:More weirdness from Tesla.

They've remotely turned off the emergency braking systems in some cars

tesla-turns-off-aeb-in-some-models

All you Tesla owners out there....did you get a text from Tesla telling you they were turning off one of your car's standard features---the emergency braking system?

Image

Cheers!

I'll agree that the idea of Tesla randomly enabling and disabling things on your car, when you may or may not know about it, is not at all good.

Apparently this is a temporary thing while they fix it. I still don't like the idea of Musk et al being able to change your car out from under you when you might not even know. (What if you didn't see the notification?)

The more stuff like this I see, it just seems like Tesla pretty much does what it wants. Will ordinary middle class car buyers (not early adopters and Tesla fanbois) put up with this, or will this kind of behavior give Tesla a big black eye?

Of course, it remains to be seen how other EV makers will behave when this sort of capability becomes common. I suspect regulation is in order, if Capitol Hill can ever get around to looking at the issue.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 00:21:05

yellowcanoe wrote:The cheaper Tesla's are targeting a different market than the older, more expensive models. A long battery life is much more important to people buying the cheaper Tesla's than it is to those buying the more expensive, high performance models.


But they've got the exact same batteries with the same life.

What is happening is that Tesla is intentionally DEGRADING the performance of the battery packs they put in cheaper cars---but they're EXACTLY THE SAME battery packs they put in the expensive cars.

Personally, I think this is dumb. Why does't TESLA sell the best product they can instead of intentionally making some of their own products crappier.???

Don't they feel guilty when they intentionally make their product worse before selling it?

Who ever heard of a company that makes a perfectly good product and then MAKES IT WORSE before selling it? Its a weird thing to do.

Cheers!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby baha » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 04:54:14

OK, Plantagenet. Take a breath.

Step back just a little and look at the big picture. You think you have control of your ICE car? Guess again. The big auto makers also download updates to your car, you just have to take it to their shop to do it. And they charge you! And, as in the case of the VW diesel scandal, the govt may force you to do it. If fact, emissions inspections do just that!

No warranty anymore? Your mechanic has complete control of your cars performance for the rest of it's life. If you have a good one, all is well. If he's dishonest, you probably won't know the diff and will pay him to screw you.

People like me install performance chips, external controllers, and re-map the transmission shift points. Do you really think Ford has built a car for maximum performance? Get real! I can get 10% more HP from any factory car made with a few cheap mods. If your OK with LOUD :)

Batteries and solar panels are tested after production and rated. Some over perform, some under. You can buy sub-par solar panels for much cheaper.

I'm sure Tesla uses an algorithm to test batteries and uses them in a suitable way. They may look the same but the test results are different. They are rated for different capacities and used accordingly.

You need to drop the idea that somehow you have any control. Unless you are me and can fix your own problems, you are dependent on TPTB for your car's performance.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 10:32:31

History has shown that software, like art, is never complete, only abandoned.

Even things like PC motherboards and smart-TVs have upgradeable firmware. Windows 10 now strong-arms you to upgrade on its schedule. If Microsoft were to suddenly get hacked or turn into a 007 villain entity they could brick most of the world's PCs which, due to our dependency on them, would probably lead to a lot of loss of life. Very skynet-like.

It's all a matter of trust vs. risk. If Tesla's software has flaws in the safety features, would it be safer to make all updates require an explicit opt-in or is it more of a liability to allow paranoid or careless drivers to forego the updates?

We're going to see this play out in a larger scale going forward. Microsoft tries to actively kill its old operating systems like XP because they become riddled with viruses. That really is the closest analogy...viruses. Imagine if someone were driving a version of autopilot that was programmed to zig instead of zag which could mean life or death?

It cuts both ways. The second you drive a car with so much autonomy in it you are placing your trust in Tesla not to screw up. Even dumber cars have had all sorts of safety issues, Firestone tires blowing out or sudden acceleration. The veteran automakers are far from perfect and these issues have been on the table for over half a century.

It doesn't surprise me that some here are on the paranoid scale and they feel that operating this way is to put your life in dire risk. Well, then be contented driving an old pre-computerized VW Bug (which is dangerous in its own way) or riding a donkey cart, or maybe both at once.

Image

It's the 21st century and this is a part of life. Vehicles are full of computing and it ain't going away.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 12:22:50

baha wrote:I'm sure Tesla uses an algorithm to test batteries and uses them in a suitable way.


Your belief that Big Business always does what is best for you is heart-warming.

Good luck with that.

Cheers!
Last edited by Plantagenet on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 12:26:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 12:24:54

asg70 wrote:Image


Tesla doesn't smash your car. They just remotely degrade its performance to make it run crappier.

Cheers!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 13:09:10

asg70 wrote:Even dumber cars have had all sorts of safety issues, Firestone tires blowing out or sudden acceleration. The veteran automakers are far from perfect and these issues have been on the table for over half a century.

True, on the overall issue. And yet, once the black box testing was done and analyzed, there has been NO legitimate proof of an actual "sudden acceleration" issue. (Not counting stuck pedals from floor mats, etc.) For the big examples of Audi and Toyota, 100% of the black box results say the claims of "sudden acceleration" were due to driver "pedal misapplication". (i.e. hitting the gas instead of the brake -- so the car was behaving as designed).

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/it ... re-feature

Now, I'm citing credible experts like the DOT. Not wild-eyed bloggers or liberal media second-guessers hatching bizarre theories because, after all, they hate profitable corporations (even though they always want to tax them more).
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 13:54:24

    Level 2 Charging
Most charging stations have level 2 charging plugs. These charging stations use about 220 V of voltage which is equivalent to high-power household appliances like clothes dryers. A typical sedan will take about 6-8 hours to charge to 100 percent capacity using level 2 chargers.

It's not just sub-zero temperature range and heating issues. All this talk regarding compromised batteries etc. is fluff. EV's are intrinsically useless (except for wealthy suburban managers and blogger-types) because lithium-ion batteries basically suck as energy storage devices. By weight . . . 2% of gasoline/diesel
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 14:07:33

pstarr wrote:EV's are intrinsically useless (except for wealthy suburban managers and blogger-types) because lithium-ion batteries basically suck as energy storage devices. By weight . . . 2% of gasoline/diesel


You just keep saying that while people start driving past you in them. Believe me, they will not all be wealthy suburban managers. Your constant ridicule and marginalization of anyone who makes more than minimum wage is tedious, BTW.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 14:10:13

Plantagenet wrote:Tesla doesn't smash your car. They just remotely degrade its performance to make it run crappier.


This is the reason you should go on a holiday by the mods. You're just going to repeat yourself ad infinitum. If it didn't cause us to grab the knives and pitchforks the first time, it won't work on the 100th try. Your outrage is purely your own.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby hvacman » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 16:03:18

re: EV battery pack energy storage capacity

I'm really tired of that "energy density" argument when comparing EV's and ICE vehicles.

It's not just comparing the battery pack's weight and energy capacity vs a gas tank full of gas. It is:

EV total drive train system weight & volume for net miles of range vs ICE total drive train system weight & volume for net miles range.


(EV battery pack + motor + gear box + power electronics + thermal management) weight/volume/net miles range

vs

(engine + transmission + radiator + exhaust system + muffler + fuel tank + gas) weight/volume/net miles range.


In absolute units, the EV drive train system still weighs more and gets less range than a compact ICE drive train system, but it is not a ratio of 50/1, which is what is implied by the "2%" energy density comment. Let's figure out just what it really is:

The Bolt's battery pack weighs about 950 lbs. The drive unit and accessories are about another 200 lbs. total drive train is about 1,150 pounds, @ 238 miles of range. The Sonic is very similar to the Bolt and weighs 500 pounds less. Let's assume its total drive train is about 650 lb. The Sonic gets 40 mpg and gas tank of 12 gallons. range = 480 miles.

So the Bolt drive train weight/mile range = 4.8 lb/mile. The Sonic drive train weight/mile range is 1.35 lb/mile range. A 3.6/1 ratio, not 50/1. And as severe as that seems, the long-term benefits of electricity for transportation regarding source options, emissions, and energy costs make it is a bargain.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 17:09:11

hvacman wrote: the long-term benefits of electricity for transportation regarding source options, emissions, and energy costs make it is a bargain.


Yup, EVs are great. Unless there is an extended power outage.

We've just seen that EVs don't work so well in a disaster. All it takes is one hurricane like IRMA wiping out the electrical infrastructure in half a state, and the EVs in the disaster area become very expensive bricks until the power comes back on.

Cheers!

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In a long power outage, EVs become very expensive bricks

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 18:32:37

pstarr wrote:
    Level 2 Charging
Most charging stations have level 2 charging plugs. These charging stations use about 220 V of voltage which is equivalent to high-power household appliances like clothes dryers. A typical sedan will take about 6-8 hours to charge to 100 percent capacity using level 2 chargers.

It's not just sub-zero temperature range and heating issues. All this talk regarding compromised batteries etc. is fluff. EV's are intrinsically useless (except for wealthy suburban managers and blogger-types) because lithium-ion batteries basically suck as energy storage devices. By weight . . . 2% of gasoline/diesel

Of course, ICE's SUCK at efficiency, and at polluting.

But for the average driver -- what they want to do is get from point A to point B. And an EV with over a 200 mile range and MUCH less to go wrong than an ICE, and will run on cheaper electricity than gasoline, will do that for them just fine, for the vast majority -- cold weather or not.

And for most people who only drive 50 miles or less a day, they need to charge FAR less than 100% of the battery at night. But what's the big deal about charging a car while you sleep?

Citing irrelevant (for most) issues endlessly is what deniers do. It doesn't make them credible.

For the 10% or whatever that really can't make do with an EV in 20 or 30 years, they can use a PHEV, and get by just fine.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 18:36:34

Plantagenet wrote:
hvacman wrote: the long-term benefits of electricity for transportation regarding source options, emissions, and energy costs make it is a bargain.


Yup, EVs are great. Unless there is an extended power outage.

We've just seen that EVs don't work so well in a disaster. All it takes is one hurricane like IRMA wiping out the electrical infrastructure in half a state, and the EVs in the disaster area become very expensive bricks until the power comes back on.

Cheers!

Image
In a long power outage, EVs become very expensive bricks

As if in 20 years or so most (or nearly all) houses won't have solar roofs, and be able to do some charging to get by while the grid is down, to do things like get groceries or supplies.

Endless FUD isn't going to make EV's go away, when they prove to be more economical and less polluting (via green electricity) than ICE's. But keep throwing things at the wall. Something may occasionally stick.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 14 Sep 2017, 19:41:35

Plantagenet wrote:We've just seen that EVs don't work so well in a disaster. All it takes is one hurricane like IRMA wiping out the electrical infrastructure in half a state, and the EVs in the disaster area become very expensive bricks until the power comes back on.
That goes for ICE vehicles as well. No power, no electricity to pump gas.

Now that Hurricane Irma has left Florida, gasoline supplies are slowly coming back into the state. But thousands of gas stations remain closed anyway. That's because with electricity out throughout the peninsula, even stations that have access to gas have no way to get it into people's vehicles. About 40 percent of gas stations remained closed in Florida, and the number was as high as 65 percent in some places. A lot of stations ran out of fuel last week as millions of Floridians began to evacuate in anticipation of the storm and rushed to fill their tanks. Although the storm is gone, many of those stations are still closed.

A lot of people who left the state in anticipation of Irma want to come home but are worried they won't find fuel along the way. "They feel paralyzed, and they cannot return from their evacuation, because no one wants to get in their car and go south on I-95 or south on I-75 and make it 300 miles [and] run out of gas on the side of the road." Stations have to wait for utility crews to restore electricity. "Went to many stations. All out. No power in this area."
With Power Out, Many Florida Gas Stations Remain Closed
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