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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 10 Jul 2017, 15:02:04

https://electrek.co/2017/07/10/tesla-su ... us-bigger/

Note inner link to this from april that Addresses PStarr's FUD:

https://electrek.co/2017/04/24/tesla-su ... ownership/

"even if there are no level 2 chargers in the parking garages, Tesla owners can still operate their vehicles more like gas-powered cars with Superchargers as gas stations."
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 05:32:34

Outcast_Searcher wrote:

1). I think he was referring to the earlier post that if you have all robot cars, when your robot car sees it is coming to the end of its range, it just calls another robot car to come pick you up. If it times things right, your delay and inconvenience is minimal. A 10% price reduction in your trip fee was proposed as compensation.

Of course, now you also have a stranded (depleted) robot car, so something else (a robot charging truck) has to drive out to the robot car and charge it enough to get to a charging station. SOMEBODY has to pay for that. So unless people are willing to take EXPENSIVE trips -- this sounds like a way for ride providers to lose a lot of money to me.


You haven't thought that all the way through. When you call for a robot car to pick you up and tell it where you want to go the computer in it will know where every robot car is and will instantly compute the best way to get you there. It will not drive two hundred miles and then call for backup. It will drive from it's charging station to your door and pick you up and if it can't reach your destination and get back to a charging station by itself it will instead drive to a charging station as far along your route as possible and will have called ahead and have a fully charged robot car there waiting for you. It will work great for those millennials that haven't learned how to drive, gotten a drivers license or insurance. The cars will never intentionally leave themselves stranded dead battery, needing a charge.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 07:04:56

"The cars will never intentionally leave themselves stranded dead battery, needing a charge."
I agree, which was kind of my point originally. (Outcast was quoting me). I just might have phrased it poorly if I left you with that impression. I should have said something like "when your robot car sees it is coming to the end of its range, it just calls another robot car to come pick you up at the end of it's practical range, and then turns around and heads back to the charging station". The whole point of this scenario was new fuels or new charging station adaptors and gizmos. In other words, there might not be any charging stations on the customer's way. Instead, and only if it was the only car in range in the next 15 minutes, the new car with the rarer, new charging infrastructure takes the customer as far as it reasonably can, and when it must turn around, it has prearranged a transfer vehicle that has finally freed up. This standard car that has the dominant charging infrastructure in abundance. If we're talking about the dominant car with the dominant infrastructure of the day, then of course it would just stop at a charging station along the way, so I totally agree with you if that's the case.


Hi all, here's a temporary diversion to consider a HUMUNGOUS MODE of ELECTRIC TRANSPORT!
How about an Orbital Ring? This thing is a combination of services, combining an intercontinental hyperloop (where you travel on the outside of the magnetic ring like a ring version of a maglev train), a gateway to space, and can even hurl space craft at Mars using nothing but electricity. The best bit? Unlike a space elevator, it's buildable with today's materials. It just requires a lot of energy to stay up there!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbI6sk-62E
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 07:16:36

eclipse wrote:"The cars will never intentionally leave themselves stranded dead battery, needing a charge."
I agree, which was kind of my point originally. (Outcast was quoting me). I just might have phrased it poorly if I left you with that impression. I should have said something like "when your robot car sees it is coming to the end of its range, it just calls another robot car to come pick you up at the end of it's practical range, and then turns around and heads back to the charging station". The whole point of this scenario was new fuels or new charging station adaptors and gizmos. In other words, there might not be any charging stations on the customer's way. Instead, and only if it was the only car in range in the next 15 minutes, the new car with the rarer, new charging infrastructure takes the customer as far as it reasonably can, and when it must turn around, it has prearranged a transfer vehicle that has finally freed up. This standard car that has the dominant charging infrastructure in abundance. If we're talking about the dominant car with the dominant infrastructure of the day, then of course it would just stop at a charging station along the way, so I totally agree with you if that's the case.


Hi all, here's a temporary diversion to consider a HUMUNGOUS MODE of ELECTRIC TRANSPORT!
How about an Orbital Ring? This thing is a combination of services, combining an intercontinental hyperloop (where you travel on the outside of the magnetic ring like a ring version of a maglev train), a gateway to space, and can even hurl space craft at Mars using nothing but electricity. The best bit? Unlike a space elevator, it's buildable with today's materials. It just requires a lot of energy to stay up there!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbI6sk-62E

That is so 1970!
The book was called "Ring world" By Larry Niven
I read it back then.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 07:23:33

Your still missing the point that the car will be connected to a central dispatching computer and will have the entire trip plotted out from the start including any transfers. If you have a real range of 200 miles you might get to a smoothly running system with charging stations and parking garages 100 miles apart which if you think about it would be covered if you put one at every airport in America and another downtown in each sizable city. Look to the current rental fleets to be the first to switch over.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 11:37:36

vtsnowedin wrote: The cars will never intentionally leave themselves stranded dead battery, needing a charge.

Fair point. I was quoting eclipse, and based on another post he wrote in this thread, I misinterpreted his meaning, so my bad on that.

Clearly your way makes a lot of sense, and they'll do something along those lines. I was thinking the rare exception condition -- but actually if the cars never strand themselves, then there's no need for it to be the rare exception -- it can just be part of the plan. As long as there are enough cars to handle the people wanting rides at a given time, it works well.

With actual centralized computerized planning / communication, if it's done well, the results can just be fantastic. All they have to do is get the meat bags (humans) out of the communications loop (they're slow and imprecise).

I'm so NOT used to thinking about car rides this way (vs. say, taxis where the stupid system has a dispatcher that speaks very poor English in the continental US -- what a brilliant plan THAT is (it's basically the taxi company MARKETING for switching to Uber, IMO)), that I have to work to get my head around doing that efficiently with computers.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 15:25:12

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: The cars will never intentionally leave themselves stranded dead battery, needing a charge.

Fair point. I was quoting eclipse, and based on another post he wrote in this thread, I misinterpreted his meaning, so my bad on that.

Clearly your way makes a lot of sense, and they'll do something along those lines. I was thinking the rare exception condition -- but actually if the cars never strand themselves, then there's no need for it to be the rare exception -- it can just be part of the plan. As long as there are enough cars to handle the people wanting rides at a given time, it works well.

With actual centralized computerized planning / communication, if it's done well, the results can just be fantastic. All they have to do is get the meat bags (humans) out of the communications loop (they're slow and imprecise).

I'm so NOT used to thinking about car rides this way (vs. say, taxis where the stupid system has a dispatcher that speaks very poor English in the continental US -- what a brilliant plan THAT is (it's basically the taxi company MARKETING for switching to Uber, IMO)), that I have to work to get my head around doing that efficiently with computers.

Thank you for the agreement of my point. It is very rare here or on the net in general so it is much appreciated.
Of course the "meat bags" will have the girlfriend that comes out half an hour late getting her makeup just right or the Mother-in -law adding a mid course stop or course correction so this will not always work smoothly as planned. But it will probably work a lot better then driving it yourself because the robot drivers will communicate with the traffic lights and hit a lot more greens then a human ever could.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 18:52:42

vtsnowedin wrote:Hi all, here's a temporary diversion to consider a HUMUNGOUS MODE of ELECTRIC TRANSPORT!
How about an Orbital Ring? This thing is a combination of services, combining an intercontinental hyperloop (where you travel on the outside of the magnetic ring like a ring version of a maglev train), a gateway to space, and can even hurl space craft at Mars using nothing but electricity. The best bit? Unlike a space elevator, it's buildable with today's materials. It just requires a lot of energy to stay up there!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbI6sk-62E

That is so 1970!
The book was called "Ring world" By Larry Niven
I read it back then.[/quote]

>> OFF TOPIC DIVERSION - but I love this topic and so am happy for the chat. A Ringworld, an absolutely impossible structure even with our strongest carbon nanotubes or anything we can imagine. It would have to spin at over a million km's a second to get enough centrifugal force to mimic gravity, and that would tear any known or conceivable materials apart. While Ringworld's are impossible, Rungworld's are entirely possible. Think of O'Neil habitats, only bigger. The huge 'continent sized' ones are McKendree cylinders. Each one could support a billion people. These giant cylinders spin on their axles, but are joined at the top and bottom axle to the next McKendree cylinder, forming what looks like a circular ladder around the star. Admittedly these rely on us knowing how to mass produce cheap carbon nanotubes which we can't do yet, but you can replace them with traditional building materials if we just build smaller O'Neil sized habitats and more of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlmKejRSVd8

<< OFF TOPIC DIVERSION

An Orbital Ring circles the Earth instead of the sun, and is about intercontinental transport that could eventually replace airlines and even NASA launching craft into space. I suggest watching the video, and there are no sci-fi technologies necessary. It's doable, just expensive to set up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbI6sk-62E
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 18:58:12

vtsnowedin wrote:Your still missing the point that the car will be connected to a central dispatching computer and will have the entire trip plotted out from the start including any transfers. If you have a real range of 200 miles you might get to a smoothly running system with charging stations and parking garages 100 miles apart which if you think about it would be covered if you put one at every airport in America and another downtown in each sizable city. Look to the current rental fleets to be the first to switch over.

No, I entirely accept that point. In fact, it is the fundamental foundation and assumption behind my point which is this frees us up from worrying about the chicken and egg fuelling / charging problem. If it's too hard, I simply can't be bothered.
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK

Unread postby dolanbaker » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 02:05:06

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40723581
New diesel and petrol cars and vans will be banned in the UK from 2040 in a bid to tackle air pollution, the government is set to announce.

Ministers will also unveil a £255m fund to help councils tackle emissions from diesel vehicles, as part of a £3bn package of spending on air quality.

The government will later publish its clean air strategy, favouring electric cars, before a High Court deadline.

That means that manufacturers have just over 20 years to shift their entire production to EVs.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40718892
A fully electric version of the Mini will be built at the Cowley plant in Oxford, BMW has said.

The carmaker said the model would go into production in 2019, with Oxford the main "production location" for the Mini three-door model.

However, the electric motor will be built in Germany before being shipped to Cowley for assembly.

BMW said it had "neither sought nor received" any reassurances from the UK on post-Brexit trading arrangements.

Last year, the government faced questions about the "support and assurances" given to Nissan before the company announced that new versions of its Qashqai and X-Trail would be made in the UK.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 06:21:58

I took a ride in a Toyota Avalon hybrid this weekend. A very nice car my buddy uses in his livery business, Logan airport pickups etc. It gets 40 mpg and the ICE kicks on so smoothly you don't notice it unless your standing still. List for $43K but he is making money with it daily. He is phasing out his older Chevy suburban and Lincoln town cars and moving to all hybrids. :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 09:32:47

One point about hybrids: they are not EVs. Hybrid powertrains save 24% to 28% of the fuel burned by their pure ICE equivalents, but still are 100% liquid-fuelled vehicles, and are relatively heavy because of two powertrains plus a battery. The extra weight does adversely effect handling, tire life, ride comfort, etc.

Plug-in hybrids can be used as pure EVs if you have a short commute, and will still serve as a long distance vehicle when required by burning a tank of gas. But plug-in hybrid batteries are larger and heavier than simple hybrid batteries.

Real EVs never burn a drop of fuel, and are as green as their power source. They can be run on 100% renewables, or 100% coal-fired grid power. The addition of a dedicated solar kiosk for charging a Tesla S at your home can increase the cost of an already expensive car by 50%.

Yes, I know this is basic stuff, but some of the comparisons made in this thread have ignored such information.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby GASMON » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 10:25:44

All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 11:20:45

KaiserJeep wrote:One point about hybrids: they are not EVs. Hybrid powertrains save 24% to 28% of the fuel burned by their pure ICE equivalents, but still are 100% liquid-fuelled vehicles, and are relatively heavy because of two powertrains plus a battery. The extra weight does adversely effect handling, tire life, ride comfort, etc.

That's previous generation(s).

For new, popular, successful (in reviews, and I'm betting in the marketplace if Toyota and Honda will actually MAKE and MARKET them to compete with the pure ICE's -- they didn't really try in the past), look at the 2018 Toyota Camry hybrids or the 2017 Honda Accord.

My 2017 Camry gets real world city (lots of traffic lights, etc) MPG of 20. Toyota and Honda are talking real world MPG of 40+ to 50ish MPG for these, and reviewers are confirming those are reasonable estimates for real world driving. That's on the order of a 100% improvement. For both cars, reviwers are saying the ride/drive is MUCH better, so you're not giving up much. For the redesigned Camry, no trunk room is used for the battery, so that issue is gone with proper design.

I think it's a BIG mistake to underestimate the viability of non-plug-in hybrids as an effective transitional vehicle. I'n hoping that Volvo signaling no more traditional ICE's produced by them from 2019 on (only hybrids and BEV's) is a sign of things to come.

Surely a vehicle fleet getting something like double the mileage during transition for city driving has to be a HUGE improvement while the BEV fleet and infrastructure is built out in coming decades.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 11:24:22

GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas

"Just imagine the joy of having to trail 800m of extension leads from your bedroom window to your car to charge it over night because you couldn't park right outside your house. Then imagine the other 240 car owners living in a tower block all having to do the same or the 50 people living in you street doing this."

As usual, the commentors have more common sense than government drones
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 11:33:51

GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas

Or, more accurately: it isn't going to be without some effort and cost.

That doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't be done.

And if the goal isn't reached and they only get to, say, 80% or 90% EV's, that's still a HELL of a big dent in the problem.

And seeing "reasons" like some people don't want more wind farms (boo hoo) isn't at all convincing to anyone outside the hard core AGW denialist group, IMO. And "reasons" like more charging stations are needed. So? In 23 years, more (lots more) can't be built?

For one obvious point, once the transition is well under way, there's no reason gas stations can't convert some (or all, in time) pumps from petrol/diesel to be charging stations. Some government incentive to help that along would be helpful, but not required. In time, economics will do the trick.

It's like the naysayers aren't even trying.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:06:43

GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas


New power stations aren't a requirement, as we've discovered with renewable buildout in other places. But California is trying some sort of mandate like this as well, the key point being that the world went from "Who Killed The Electric Car" to the EV roaring back because of peak oil a decade ago,and then we get the failure and cheating of diesel manufacturers, and presto!! The world changes just that easily. Most consumers don't even need those stinky, icky liquid fuels anyway, so let us hear it for the SECOND world changing event we can attribute to peak oil, the first being glut and low prices, and now, structural replacement for even the need of the first!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:10:23

KaiserJeep wrote:One point about hybrids: they are not EVs. Hybrid powertrains save 24% to 28% of the fuel burned by their pure ICE equivalents, but still are 100% liquid-fuelled vehicles, and are relatively heavy because of two powertrains plus a battery. The extra weight does adversely effect handling, tire life, ride comfort, etc.
..........
.
All true enough except perhaps ride comfort. The Avalon is a luxury sedan and rides like a dream. 40 mpg in city stop and go traffic for a full sized sedan is not to be sneezed at. It is here available now and not just a promise from Elan Musk. I would not want one for the dirt roads of Vermont but for Boston or any comparable traffic nightmare is very competitive.
If we could double mpg on the entire fleet we could drop gasoline consumption from ten to five million barrels a day and stop importing any Mideast oil.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:12:04

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas

Or, more accurately: it isn't going to be without some effort and cost.


Nothing of value can.

outcast_searcher wrote:That doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't be done.


Absolutely. We'll know that even the dullards have gotten it when pstarr one day announces that he is done with his CO2 polluting ways, and has collected something that doesn't pollute.

outcast_searcher wrote:For one obvious point, once the transition is well under way, there's no reason gas stations can't convert some (or all, in time) pumps from petrol/diesel to be charging stations. Some government incentive to help that along would be helpful, but not required. In time, economics will do the trick.

It's like the naysayers aren't even trying.


Gas stations? One of these sits by an Arbys fast food restaurant, in the middle of nowhere. Limon Colorado to be exact, noticed it while filling up a normal ICE, couldn't figure out what it was, so I went and looked. Don't need no gas station, just need one of these near an Arbies for a sandwich, and a gas station for a bathroom and fountain drinks and presto! The world has already changed, but you don't even know it unless you visit Limon and see it for yourself.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:40:43

AdamB wrote:Gas stations? One of these sits by an Arbys fast food restaurant, in the middle of nowhere. Limon Colorado to be exact, noticed it while filling up a normal ICE, couldn't figure out what it was, so I went and looked. Don't need no gas station, just need one of these near an Arbies for a sandwich, and a gas station for a bathroom and fountain drinks and presto! The world has already changed, but you don't even know it unless you visit Limon and see it for yourself.
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Tesla, "Charging ahead and leading the way!"

More Electric Vehicles Needed to Spur Electric Vehicle Development
But even with this local support, EV sales are not taking off quickly. They peaked in 2014 at 0.72 percent of total new automobile and light-duty truck purchases. Last summer almost 500,000 EVs were on the road — just a drop compared with the more than 250 million vehicles in the United States.

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You guys need to get off the curb and buy one of the darn machines and drive Into the Fast Lane. It’s a conundrum. Can't drive sales from your old junkers :badgrin:
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