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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:57:11

The latest Electric Vehicle to debut from Silicon Valley is the Renovo coupe, which showed a prototype at the 2014 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance in Monterey, California.
Image
Boasting twin electric motors and the same high density lithium batteries as all modern EV's, the Renovo specs are impressive: 500hp, 1000ft-lbs of torque, zero-to-sixty in 3.4 seconds, 120mph top end, and 100 mile range.

The designers made a deliberate design choice to trade off additional range for lighter weight, higher performance, and better handling. They were not building a family sedan like a Tesla, they were building a supercar, so they kept the battery weight down. The smaller battery led to the bonus of faster recharge time, the Renovo can be fast-charged in 30 minutes and trickle charged from a wall plug in 5 hours, which are record short recharge times for an EV.

The body is a Shelby American CSX9000, the continuation of the famous Shelby Daytona coupes.

It's thoroughly ridiculous, completely impractical, and probably will cost a quarter of a million bucks if they ever make it to production status. But it's the first EV to raise more than a tepid interest in me, and I want one.

http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/renovo-motors-coupe-not-yer-ordinary-gas-swilling-half-million-dollar-shelby-daytona-redux
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/17/renovo-motors-coupe-monterey-2014/
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:09:01

Why is a 100 mile range two seater that can be charged anywhere impractical (setting aside cost)? This is actually the direction I think EV's should go; small, light, quick and slick. Trying to replace the function of a 4 seater, van, or pickup with an EV seems to me to be trying to fight on turf where the ICE has the greatest advantage; when point of fact is that most trips are not long, not carrying passengers, nor hauling substantial cargo.

Commute in this guy, or its cousin 2 seater EVs... Keep the ICE for the large sedan or minivan/suv for times when you want to drag the family and 400 lbs of luggage to grandma's house.
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby lper100km » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:38:56

What these exotics do is to impress a gullible public that EVs can go head to head with ICEs in performance. It's an extreme that spearheads a trend with the intention of gaining acceptance of the technology. What is really needed, though hardly exotic, is a practical, lightweight vehicle for performing those mundane tasks that our automobile dependent suburban lifestyle requires ie shopping and commuting. Something like a souped up stylish golf cart. A 100 mile range is probably adequate for most purposes. Regrettably, such a vehicle would have to conform to the highway driving conditions established by ICEs, thereby compromising it's purpose as an economical runabout. Such a vehicle would likely be scorned today as earlier manufacturers have already experienced such an attitude, but at some point the time will be right. Until people are unable to afford gasoline for marginal activities, the practical EV is unlikely to gain any traction, so to speak.
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:58:30

AgentR11 wrote:Why is a 100 mile range two seater that can be charged anywhere impractical (setting aside cost)? This is actually the direction I think EV's should go; small, light, quick and slick. Trying to replace the function of a 4 seater, van, or pickup with an EV seems to me to be trying to fight on turf where the ICE has the greatest advantage; when point of fact is that most trips are not long, not carrying passengers, nor hauling substantial cargo.

Commute in this guy, or its cousin 2 seater EVs... Keep the ICE for the large sedan or minivan/suv for times when you want to drag the family and 400 lbs of luggage to grandma's house.


Sometimes I forget I am not talking to other engineers, sorry. The car above is a concept. It is a hand-built prototype that started on a Shelby American CSX9000 rolling chassis. That is a space frame (aka tube chassis) with the suspension and drivetrain and body bolted on. There are no air bags, side impact protection, bumpers, heating or A/C systems, etc.

In other words, this vehicle does not comply with the majority of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. The FMVSS is a complex series of DOT standards implemented over a prolonged period by the US Congress.

YOU could buy a Shelby Daytona rolling chassis, complete with the options you wanted, and then modify it into a functional vehicle with some sort of powertrain. But you could not produce other cars for sale unless they comply with the FMVSS.

YOU could also try to register and insure a single one-off "kit car", and most people do eventually succeed at getting the car through the local DMV inspection and only scream in agony at the price of insurance.

If you want to learn more about such things, I suggest looking up the Dodge Viper V-10 story on the web. It too, started life as a concept, and became a production car. Today you can buy one for the princely sum of $125,000 after three major revisions and 22 model years of production.

Another story to research might be the Tesla sedan. It however was the second model, following on after the limiterd edition Tesla sports car.

The message would be that the production car would not look like the concept, the specifications would change, and the players will change as well.

The one above is the one I want. Perhaps a hobby project after retirement?
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 13:25:22

lper100km wrote:What these exotics do is to impress a gullible public that EVs can go head to head with ICEs in performance. It's an extreme that spearheads a trend with the intention of gaining acceptance of the technology. What is really needed, though hardly exotic, is a practical, lightweight vehicle for performing those mundane tasks that our automobile dependent suburban lifestyle requires ie shopping and commuting. Something like a souped up stylish golf cart. A 100 mile range is probably adequate for most purposes. Regrettably, such a vehicle would have to conform to the highway driving conditions established by ICEs, thereby compromising it's purpose as an economical runabout. Such a vehicle would likely be scorned today as earlier manufacturers have already experienced such an attitude, but at some point the time will be right. Until people are unable to afford gasoline for marginal activities, the practical EV is unlikely to gain any traction, so to speak.


Such vehicles as you describe are called "Low Speed Vehicles" or "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles". The "low speed" is key, they do not need energy-absorbing bumpers or air bags or in fact most safety features. Basic features like headlights, turn signals, and windshields make them street legal on roads where the speed limit is 35mph or less, although they can cross roads with higher speed limits.

I could actually use such a vehicle for much of what I do. My favored version is one of these:
Image
...the electric version of the 4WD Polaris UTV with an optional cab and dump body. I need mine for suburban gardening and general utility use on the doomstead.

LSV/NEV standards vary by State and City. You need to check out local standards before buying.
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 14:24:34

KaiserJeep wrote:In other words, this vehicle does not comply with the majority of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. The FMVSS is a complex series of DOT standards implemented over a prolonged period by the US Congress.


I know what they are. I also know that they can be changed if economic circumstances require.
I understand that the vehicle is a concept design that doesn't comply with existing regs.

What people leaning on the regs-as-excuse mantra seem to not understand, is that legislation lives and dies at the whim of the congress and president. When it is time for EV's in a serious way, the regs that get in the way of an ultralight, quick, modest range EV will be squished faster than you can eat a doughnut. That time is not now, and could be a decade or more away.

If you wanted to use the regs-as-excuse to thump on the first conversational response, you might have included a disclaimer to indicate such, thus, I respond:
====================================
Why is a 100 mile range two seater that can be charged anywhere impractical (setting aside cost)? This is actually the direction I think EV's should go; small, light, quick and slick. Trying to replace the function of a 4 seater, van, or pickup with an EV seems to me to be trying to fight on turf where the ICE has the greatest advantage; when point of fact is that most trips are not long, not carrying passengers, nor hauling substantial cargo.

Commute in this guy, or its cousin 2 seater EVs... Keep the ICE for the large sedan or minivan/suv for times when you want to drag the family and 400 lbs of luggage to grandma's house.
====================================
With the caveat that regs in each individual country are adapted to comply with economic necessities that require efficient EV transportation for commuters.

Such a vehicle is *NOT* impractical in any way. regs-as-excuse is NOT an indicator of a vehicles impracticality, it is an indicator of a potential impracticality in the regulation.
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby Pops » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 15:44:19

That is a cool machine, 1,000 ft/lb! That is a lot of temporary facelift, you'd look like Joan Rivers for a 1/4 mile, lol.

Sexy to an old fart like me, but I think the next big thing is little, light, cheap - regardless of fuel. Not sure that the one percent care about milage, if the 99% are not going to walk to their respective serving counter jobs they need something cheap.

Thinking about it, that might be the real benefit of the Google-mobile, eliminating hundreds of pounds of crumple zone steel due to decreased chance of collision. - maybe
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby Lore » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 17:22:02

I did a quick survey at the local pub the other night asking the youngsters there what they thought of autos these days. Almost to a person they had little use for them other than a necessary means of transportation. I guess it's just us old farts that still hold nostalgic dreams of fast muscle cars as a ritual right of passage to adulthood and as a status symbol in midlife or a pacifier for a second childhood in later life. In general though, I believe the US consumer is really beginning to lose its love affair for the auto.
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby farmlad » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 21:18:01

I've been wondering for some time what folks on this site think of the Elio tricycle http://www.eliomotors.com To me the concept sounds good, but will they be able to deliver on the price and quality? $6,800 wouldn't even buy much of a bike. Then you also have this thing of giving them a downpayment that just smells of a fraud.
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Re: Wretched Excess, Silicon Valley Style

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 19 Aug 2014, 22:34:13

farmlad, I love these alt-concept cars but they have their limits. Most have lowered ride-height, ground clearance which improves aerodynamics, but sacrifices 'roadability'--in snow, gravel, uneven pavement. (The original Honda Hybrid is a classic example, the fairing fill with snow.) Temperate (frigid winters, burning summers) America and Europe requires heavy car for commutes with clearance and air-conditioning.

I'll be the first to buy one when the world looks like this:

Image
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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Pops » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:43:36

Looks like Atkinson cycle basically has a shorter compression stroke than power stroke so the exhaust gas exits close to atmospheric pressure. You get as much power from the burn as possible but likely can't smoke the tires because the lower compression lowers horsepower, unless you add a super-charger... :twisted:

Modern engines use variable valve timing to achieve the same thing.

I think...
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Re: Electric Car Future 'Definitely Coming,' Lutz Says

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 03:04:03

Beery1 wrote:
John_A wrote:Image


Jeez! Just think how much food they could make with all that land. And as Pstarr says, what on Earth are they powering? There's enough electricity being generated there to power a small village.


They ARE making food with all that land - see the sheep amongst the solar arrays? It's a pasture.

That is enough solar power to run a farm and heat that uninsulated 17th century stone home shown in the photograph with electricity, in Scotland no less.
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Re: Electric Car Future 'Definitely Coming,' Lutz Says

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 10:39:21

KaiserJeep wrote:They ARE making food with all that land - see the sheep amongst the solar arrays? It's a pasture.

That is enough solar power to run a farm and heat that uninsulated 17th century stone home shown in the photograph with electricity, in Scotland no less.


Sure up to a point, but grass needs sunlight to grow and from the hoot I would expect about 1/3 the normal number of sheep can graze that pasture. That isn't to say it is worthless, a third is still well worth raising from a self sufficiency viewpoint.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 19 Dec 2015, 12:31:31

kublikhan wrote:The Saab 96 looks pretty fugly to me. The Sonic on the other hand does not. Don't care for the hatchback but the Sonic Dusk looks ok to me.


This isn't a thread meant to evaluate the looks of a car whose design originates in the late 1940s in 2015. People rushed to the Sonic/Bolt's defense on the part of its drag coefficient. I destroyed that defense by explaining that the Model S had an extremely low drag and its looks are very good. Bringing my old SAAB into it was just hyperbole on my part.

The problem with the Sonic and cars like it is it has no hood and the headlights extend all the way to the door hinges. It looks grotesquely out of proportion compared to a more traditional car. Maybe I'm out of touch, but I expect cars to have a hood and for headlights to be in the front and not to wrap all the way around to the side like that.

Image

Image

And when you see how they adjusted the design for the Bolt, they have attempted to walk back those design cues. It should have been designed right from the first place. The designers of the Sonic should be shot, after they first shoot the designers of the i3.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby hvacman » Mon 21 Dec 2015, 16:31:38

The production version of the Bolt very likely will be pretty aero, with different styling cues than has been suggested above. Many compare it to a combo of a Volt and an i3.

Here is a link to some spy shots of what apparently is an actual production version the the Bolt. Way different than the concept.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/12/01/2017-chevy-bolt-spy-shots/

I'm thinking the Bolt Cd will be in the 0.26-0.28 range. The front isn't too bad, the roof is about perfect from an aero-perspective, and it has an excellent Kamm-style back, ala Prius. Also, I bet there is a full bottom body panel. That is a big unseen player in the drag game.o

And drag coefficient is just one aspect of an EV's overall efficiency and range. Battery chemistry, power electronics, motor design, and cabin HVAC also play critical roles. Most miles are NOT done at 70 mph or higher. Weight is a huge one for city/interurban driving, where most miles are driven, especially for EV's. GM has been very aggressive with aluminum and high-strength steel engineering to reduce weight. They might have some carbon fiber in the Bolt, too, but I don't know if that will fit in their cost envelope.

We'll know next month when Bolt makes its public debut.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 21 Dec 2015, 18:56:31

I have become somewhat excited (I know. who woulda thought lol) about the Volt (and now the Bolt?). Does the drive train offer a boost/power mode where both the ICE and the electric motor act in concert for passing, etc? That would be cool.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 24 Dec 2015, 01:45:48

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 24 Dec 2015, 17:09:37

Motiv's factory for EV commercial trucks is up and running:

Sure, you could make an amazing electric vehicle from scratch like our friends over at Tesla Motors, but a company called Motiv Power Systems has figured out another way to get more EVs into the hands of more people, sooner rather than later. Motiv’s secret sauce is an all-electric powertrain that can be assembled onto three different off-the-shelf chassis using off-the-shelf batteries and motors, which eliminates a lot of fuss and bother, and this explains why the California Energy Commission has provided the company with an $8.1 million grant to ramp its powertrain into the market and rev up a new factory in Hayward. Motiv’s “All-Electric Powertrain Upfit Package” can fit the Ford F59, the Ford E450, and the Crane Carrier cabover class 8 chassis, which covers everything from box trucks to school buses and garbage trucks.

Motiv’s latest announcement takes the company from the demo project stage into full commercialization. The Hayward factory, which officially opens today (May 27), will turn out 480 Motiv powertrains per year.
New Factory Will Make 480 “Instant” Electric Trucks & Buses Per Year

Chicago has the first — and currently only — electric garbage truck in North America, a quieter, cleaner and greener model. Now that it's been designed, the more trucks that are ordered, the more that price will go down. By truck No. 10, the price is around $500,000, Castelaz said. That's still more expensive than the $250,000 a gas truck costs, but the electric truck — which charges for eight hours overnight — is one-eighth the cost of a gas truck per mile when factoring in electricity and gas prices.

The Motiv vehicle must be able to handle the same workday of driving up to 60 miles, carrying a weight capacity of 9 tons and having compaction power of 1,000 pounds per cubic yard. "It has a very hard use cycle," Castelaz said. The truck was even built using the same light blue body as Chicago's diesel garbage trucks, just with modifications like the 10 batteries hidden along the back of its cab.

Though the diesel and electric trucks operate the same, Castelaz and Campbell said they've both heard from sanitation workers who prefer the all-electric. "We had one driver tell us that the truck changed his life," Castelaz said. "He said, for eight hours a day he's sitting 2 feet from an engine that's hot, smells bad and is shaking. With our truck, he has none of those things." Said Campbell: "We’re not burning diesel fuel. There's no exhaust pipe, and it’s a totally clean energy source. They’re saying it's really nice having a much cleaner worker environment."
Chicago Has Continent's Only All-Electric Garbage Truck

Motiv electric garbage truck specifications

Tesla cofounder looks to be getting into the market for electric garbage trucks as well:

Wright, one of the original co-founders of Tesla, believes that Class 8 garbage trucks represent a soft target for electrification, because the benefits are so significant. "They are burning 14,000 gallons a year, and chewing up their brakes every three months. Doing on average of 130 miles day with 1,000 hard stops, drivers are going full throttle, full brakes 1,000 times a day." Wrightspeed was created – and a unique assemblage of technology was developed – to address that challenge of stopping and starting and high energy consumption. The company essentially takes an existing garbage truck or medium-duty delivery truck and swaps out the entire powertrain with a more sophisticated and efficient replacement.

One major difference between a truck and a luxury sedan is in the need to capture a good deal of energy during the braking process of a truck, and then feed it back into the heavy vehicle when it moves again. With Wrightspeed’s high power regenerative braking, the regenerative braking power can go up to 730 kW. Wright observes, “Heavy trucks doing hard stops put that power into the brakes.”

Wrightspeed’s CEO comments that the company is already out of the lab and has been on the road for the past 14 months with medium-duty FedEx delivery trucks. The technology has been proven and the company is converting 25 more delivery vehicles. The first Class 8 garbage truck will be picking up trash “in a few months,” and that’s a potentially huge target with an opportunity for vast improvements. "The running costs are much lower, both maintenance and fuel. You can save about $35,000 per year on fuel per truck and about $20,000 per year in maintenance."
Electric Garbage Trucks: Huge Energy Savings And They Won't Wake You Up In The Morning
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Fri 25 Dec 2015, 21:47:19

There are a lot of uses for an electric vehicle. How about in-town deliveries? We have been using one for many years now for in-town driving and it works very well.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby hvacman » Wed 06 Jan 2016, 13:51:40

Despite low oil prices, December EV sales just set a new one-month record.

http://insideevs.com/ev-sales-record-set-december-us-powered-bmw-i8-wait/

Interestingly, two brand-new high-performance PHEV vehicles - BMW's i8 and X5 - pushed sales over the top.

Later today in Las Vegas' Consumer Electronics Show, GM will officially unveil the production version of their new all-electric Chevy Bolt - with unofficial leaks claiming it to have over 200 mile range, carbon fiber/aluminum construction, sub-7 second 0-60, fast charging capability, seats 5, and MSRP (after tax credits) below $30K. GM says it will be in dealer showrooms for retail sale before the end of this year.
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