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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:20:13

T - "...this is one of those arguments that boils down to definitions." So I'll repeat the same recommendation: if one is going to debate future consumer energy supplies one should stay with those supplies. The consumers buy neither oil nor oil substitutes. They buy gasoline et al. A consumer doesn't care if his tank got filled with fuel made from oil or a non-oil. In that sense definitions don't matter very much. How much oil will be produced in 2040 is a valid speculation. But how much motor fuel is being produced that year is not exactly the same speculation.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:40:21

Energy cost of extracting oil nearer the surface <> energy cost of extracting oil that is deeper.

That's why there's an "ignore" function.
http://sites.google.com/site/peakoilreports/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 17 Nov 2016, 12:44:42

Tanada,"You and I have certainly circled the not counting condensate end many times, I count it and you call it lighter fluid. So long as we all know what we are counting and don't pretend we have the only viable definition then none of us are lying, we are just disagreeing."

Relativism is a slippery slope. Once we accept resources (hydrocarbons available at any price) as oil we might as well expand the definition to include Fischer-Tropsch conversions of woody material. You and I have an ethical (if not moral responsibility) to call out the playa's with their misdirection and arbitrage.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Thu 17 Nov 2016, 19:44:32

pstarr wrote:hvacman, are you really giving credit to Tesla/Musk for lithium battery development? I have trouble stomaching that :-x lol

But about those mini-splits! Where would Humboldt be without them lol [smilie=glasses3.gif]


Hey, cut me and I bleed GM-blue, but I have to admit that everything points to the Tesla Roadster as the paradigm shift that moved hybrid and EV batteries from lead-acid and nickel-metal hydride. Can't say it was Elon's idea, though. Could have been Tesla co-founder Ian Wright, JB Straubel, or Martin Eberhard's idea. Musk originally joined Tesla as an investor, not an engineer.

The Roadster, the company's first vehicle, was the first production automobile to use lithium-ion battery cells and the first production EV with a range greater than 200 miles (320 km) per charge


General Motors' then-Vice chairman Robert Lutz said in 2007 that the Tesla Roadster inspired him to push GM to develop the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in hybrid sedan.[177] In an August 2009 edition of The New Yorker, Lutz was quoted as saying, "All the geniuses here at General Motors kept saying lithium-ion technology is 10 years away, and Toyota agreed with us—and boom, along comes Tesla. So I said, 'How come some tiny little California startup, run by guys who know nothing about the car business, can do this, and we can't?' That was the crowbar that helped break up the log jam."[178]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby EdwinSm » Wed 14 Dec 2016, 06:54:32

A 'new' firm on the block:
Google is putting its self-driving car technology into a new company which it will call Waymo, the firm has announced.

The new business, Waymo, will be owned by Google’s parent company, Alphabet.

It signals a push to commercialise the technology which Google has been developing for more than 10 years.....

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38309834

When I first saw the title of the new company I immediately thought that it was short for "Way (to) mow (down pedestrians)". 8O I suppose it is hard to come up with good names that have not been copyrighted by someone else.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby vox_mundi » Fri 16 Dec 2016, 12:56:42

Image
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 16 Dec 2016, 17:46:08

Hopefully, more cartoons will also refer to production costs and debt.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 01:22:27

What if we don't have to replace every oil car with an Electric Vehicle? What if we used Robot EV's that we share like a really cheap taxi? How many Robot EV's would it take to replace all our cars? I'd be happy if 1 Robot EV replaced 5 oil combustion vehicles, but it could be a lot better than that.

"A robotic electric car could displace the usage of ten regular vehicles. This will also reduce the supply chain ramp-up burden. Instead of needing to make 2 billion electric vehicles, 200 million robotic ride sharing vehicles would have the same displacement effect. Only 80 gigafactories instead of 800 would be needed to generate the displacement effect,"


Image
http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/01/ro ... icles.html

And where does the power come from to charge all these extra EV's? How many extra power stations would we have to build? Not many. “For the United States as a whole, 84% of US cars, pickup trucks and SUVs could be supported by the existing infrastructure, ” said an NREL study. How? About 45% are charged on spare capacity at night.
https://eclipsenow.files.wordpress.com/ ... _part1.pdf

By investing in EV's, America can clean up transport as they also build out more sustainable nuclear power stations to clean up their electricity sector. They're already 60% nuclear. We can do this. France went nuclear in about 15 years, converting 75% of their grid to nuclear. (The other 25% is hydro).
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that burn nuclear 'waste', giving America 1000 years of clean electricity without mining more uranium. Then America can charge about 86% of their cars on the existing grid, only building more reactors for the last 14%.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 08:36:48

eclipse wrote:What if we don't have to replace every oil car with an Electric Vehicle? ....
.....
By investing in EV's, America can clean up transport as they also build out more sustainable nuclear power stations to clean up their electricity sector. They're already 60% nuclear. We can do this. France went nuclear in about 15 years, converting 75% of their grid to nuclear. (The other 25% is hydro).

That figure is off by a factor of three. Electric generation in the US for 2015 was 33% coal 33% natural gas 20% nuclear 6% hydro power and 7 % other renewables and 1% oil.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
When I stopped to fuel up at the Hooksett NH liquor store on I 93 the other day I noticed a line of about a dozen Tesla charging stations. None were being used. :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 08:58:19

ralfy wrote:Hopefully, more cartoons will also refer to production costs and debt.


Only if they demonstrate that the first has been going down, and as Rockman pointed out, his company hasn't had anything to do with debt in their oil and gas development. More understanding that the world isn't all about people who expanded like crazy people during the boom times, and then folks will also understand that some companies have been through theses storms before, even if to a peaker the world is a new place, every morning, and every boom and bust cycle of the industry.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 09:01:52

vtsnowedin wrote:
eclipse wrote:What if we don't have to replace every oil car with an Electric Vehicle? ....
.....
By investing in EV's, America can clean up transport as they also build out more sustainable nuclear power stations to clean up their electricity sector. They're already 60% nuclear. We can do this. France went nuclear in about 15 years, converting 75% of their grid to nuclear. (The other 25% is hydro).

That figure is off by a factor of three. Electric generation in the US for 2015 was 33% coal 33% natural gas 20% nuclear 6% hydro power and 7 % other renewables and 1% oil.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
When I stopped to fuel up at the Hooksett NH liquor store on I 93 the other day I noticed a line of about a dozen Tesla charging stations. None were being used. :)


I drove the wife's EV across the top of HH and VT this past summer, and the % count on EVs was very low, so unused supercharger stations aren't a surprise. That could in part be because I wouldn't buy a Tesla to drive on VT roads, although NH's were far better, and the cost of living in terms of housing sucks so badly there that I imagine most median income folks can barely afford the property they've just purchased, let alone a fancy EV, as compared to the dime a dozen <$20G kind you trip over on every walk around the block.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 09:16:58

AdamB wrote:I wouldn't buy a Tesla to drive on VT roads, although NH's were far better,.

Having worked for the NHDOT for thirty years plus and having supervised hundreds of miles of paving in Western NH over those years I'll take that as a compliment.
NH does have a superior road maintenance strategy compared to VT's. Vt can't seem to learn from it's mistakes.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 12:09:26

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote:I wouldn't buy a Tesla to drive on VT roads, although NH's were far better,.

Having worked for the NHDOT for thirty years plus and having supervised hundreds of miles of paving in Western NH over those years I'll take that as a compliment.
NH does have a superior road maintenance strategy compared to VT's. Vt can't seem to learn from it's mistakes.


VT was awful. Comparable to the crappy parts of the road up Mt Washington. And there was a distinct lack of EVs, not necessarily noticeable unless you come from an area where they are all over the place. There are at least 2 or 3 of them in the student parking lot at the local high school, obviously moms and dads being eco-minded and sending their children off to school in modern transport.

But the northern end of VT and NH isn't where I would expect to find a large EV population, distances between towns qualified them as distinct towns, as opposed to how suburban towns all blend together. The new Bolt might change that, with its increased range over the Gen I and Gen II ev's and plugin hybrids, but I've noticed that cold just kills range, no way around that one. EVs seem to handle 100F heat just fine, but <30F and the instant the heater comes on, it drops like a rock. The wife uses hers to go to work March through November, maybe December if the weather holds, but this morning it was like +10F and she grabs the car keys of the kidmobile instead. The local Leaf owners are pretty diehard, you see them out even in the snow and slush, same with the Volt owners, although I would think that low front ground clearance would cause snow plowing issues, the wife's car has that problem. Tesla Model S's are spotted occasionally, only ever see one roadster though. The Model S is a damn fine looking auto, but too pricey for those of us just happy to have personal post peak oil transport choices.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 13:12:31

Well fortunately the vast majority of auto owners live in the suburbs and commute to and from urban areas daily. Plenty of room for EVs in that market and us rural people that travel mountain roads with snow and mud can stick to our ICE pickups for a couple of more decades.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby Revi » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 14:37:08

I think we should be driving around in very small electric vehicles and taking trains and busses between towns.
The age of pushing 5000 pounds of metal around is over.
Here's one that you can get at any Polaris dealer:
Image
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 15:12:04

That is so cool Revi, though not yet road ready. It'll be my choice though, when oil becomes scarce and the commuter paradigm ends.

With a maximum speed of 25 mph the car doesn't need expensive safety and comfort conveniences. No need for large heavy engine, rigid frame, caged passenger compartment, air bags etc. Costly aerodynamic panels are redundant, the box is fine. For short hops around town insulation for cold and noise is also unnecessary. Ready to buy when the EV version comes out. Screw the Bolt :) 8)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 15:57:30

Apologies everyone, I think the 60% nuclear statistic was about the amount of clean American electricity. The thing to remember with robot electric cars is that you probably don't have to buy them. Without the cab driver's salary to worry about, you'll just hire them on a per trip basis like a taxi or Uber fair. Then you'll get the top-of-the-line model at about 10% of today's cab fares, and maybe even less if you sign up for car sharing trips. Of course, as a fan of new urbanism I see this as plugging in the gaps of an efficient public transport system. This should be about working with trains and trams and trolleybuses, not trying to replace them.
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that burn nuclear 'waste', giving America 1000 years of clean electricity without mining more uranium. Then America can charge about 86% of their cars on the existing grid, only building more reactors for the last 14%.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 17:28:09

eclipse wrote:Apologies everyone, I think the 60% nuclear statistic was about the amount of clean American electricity.
I think it is more likely the amount of new renewable energy installed that year. However with the very large amount of legacy dirty energy the total US grid is more like 33% clean(20% nuclear, 6% hydro, 7% other renewable). The rest is dirty fossil fuels.

In yet another confirmation of where the nation's energy future is headed, renewable sources (i.e., biomass, geothermal, hydropower, solar, wind) accounted for more than 60% (60.20%) of the 7,276 MW of new electrical generation placed in service in the United States during the first nine months of 2015.
Renewables = 60% of New U.S. Generating Capacity in 1st 3-Qs 2015
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby hvacman » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 18:09:42

AdamB wrote:[

But the northern end of VT and NH isn't where I would expect to find a large EV population, distances between towns qualified them as distinct towns, as opposed to how suburban towns all blend together. The new Bolt might change that, with its increased range over the Gen I and Gen II ev's and plugin hybrids, but I've noticed that cold just kills range, no way around that one. EVs seem to handle 100F heat just fine, but <30F and the instant the heater comes on, it drops like a rock. The wife uses hers to go to work March through November, maybe December if the weather holds, but this morning it was like +10F and she grabs the car keys of the kidmobile instead. The local Leaf owners are pretty diehard, you see them out even in the snow and slush, same with the Volt owners, although I would think that low front ground clearance would cause snow plowing issues, the wife's car has that problem. Tesla Model S's are spotted occasionally, only ever see one roadster though. The Model S is a damn fine looking auto, but too pricey for those of us just happy to have personal post peak oil transport choices.


It appears the Bolt might do 200 miles range even in a wintry 17 deg. F Detroit MI day, if only the SUVs would stay off the road;)

By the time I got to Detroit’s 150-year-old farmer’s market in Eastern Market, I had covered 90 miles and had a projected 103 left.

My initial goal of wringing 200 miles from a single charge of the batteries seemed within reach, despite the battery-draining cold. I began to wonder if I’d have time to use the battery fully before I had to return the car to GM for another writer to test the next day.

“POW!” “Crunch!” “Tinkle” went the Bolt’s rear left corner, shredding the fender and shattering the taillights.

I’ll never know if I could have hit 200 miles on a charge, but I’ll always believe I could have.


http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/m ... /95481484/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 5

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 20:50:29

Again back to the robots. Without drivers salaries to pay, what do people think of the fact that Uber and Tesla and other companies are thinking about robot cabs that can charge a mere fraction of what cab drivers demand today?

The big car companies sense the drop in car ownership and are moving to replace ownership with a new model. Fast. As The Guardian asked, "Have we really reached 'peak car'?"

Robot cars will look less like this...

Image

and more like this ...

Image
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that burn nuclear 'waste', giving America 1000 years of clean electricity without mining more uranium. Then America can charge about 86% of their cars on the existing grid, only building more reactors for the last 14%.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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